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**Klaus1989** · 12-08-2014, 11:42 AM

Hi,
nice new addition!

The Sumpftarn uniforms for West Berlin Bepo were made for few years after 1959 into early 60s. There is unfortunately no known photos and very little infos, but the theory, that I have heard, is that they were only produced for case of war, and were never issued (which would explain why mass-produced but unissued). It appear to be part of effort to modernise uniforms and equipment poorly-equipped Berlin Bepo after BGS model at this time. A similar olive uniform was introduced for "peacetime" wear. The jacket was same cut as first BGS model with detachable hood. I think, that the Sumpftarn smock was also produced, but not remember. There are no Sumpftarn caps to my knowledge, not sure about Zeltbahn. The pattern has tan splinters over green areas (not on BGS) and colours are slightly different.

So far is known of following in Berlin Sumpftarn:
- jacket
- detachable hood for jacket
- trousers
- smock (?)

There are also have appeared very rarely Sumpftarn jackets in style of Schleswig-Holstein Polizei with pointed pockets, which could indicate, that at least one other Bundesland experimented with such uniforms. No trousers are (yet) known and the rarity would indicate, that they never went beyond experimental stage. West-Berlin and S-H were two states most influenced by BGS in equipment, so this it is maybe not surprise, that both would experiment with BGS camo.

There have been a few discussions about these over years here. Here is complete uniform from collector in Berlin, that was posted here. I am sure, that several others here could post.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...mpftarn&page=3

Regards
Klaus

**Marksharky** · 12-08-2014, 02:51 PM

Thanks for the detailed information. I am definitely going to be looking through old photo archives to see if i can find any photos of the camo in use!
I will talk to my good friend, and fellow BGS collector in Berlin, and see if he has any more information about the Berlin Polizei use. He is also a BGS veteran and has a number of polizei contacts. Maybe I will get lucky!

**Klaus1989** · 12-08-2014, 05:44 PM

In linked thread of my previous mentions use of camo jackets with regular trousers, so apparently the jackets worn, but have never seen any photos or other mention of this. Hopefully you can find some more infos.

Regards
Klaus

**Collectinsteve** · 12-09-2014, 03:42 PM

I'll add some stuff to what Klaus had to say, but it's mostly reinforcing and not new information.

These Berlin uniforms are unique. They have minor differences from BGS uniforms, but obviously are closely modeled after the BGS design. The big difference is the cloth and the print, neither of which are the same as BGS. Though I have to say Mark's example is not as obvious as some of the others I've seen. Regardless, after you've seen a bunch of these you can acquire an eye for telling the difference between the two.

For a long, long time these uniforms were far rarer than the BGS type. Until very recently most people bought and sold them as if they were BGS. But then they started appearing for sale quite a lot in the last 4 or so years. In particular from an eBay seller who has a shop in Berlin. He told me, many years ago, that he bought out a huge quantity that had been in storage at a movie/theater costume company. He's still selling them piece by piece even now. Or at least I've seen some for sale this year from him.

The condition tends to be pretty good on average. I'd say better than the average early BGS pieces for sale.

I have only seen jackets, hoods, and trousers in the material. Not even once have I seen a hat or Zeltbahn. Because of this I seriously doubt either exist, however even BGS Sumpftarn hats are extremely hard to find so it's possible there was a small number of hats produced and they simply aren't around. Again, I don't think that's the case, just saying it can't be completely ruled out since we don't have much information on the uniform.

It's a great uniform to have in a collection.

Steve

**Marksharky** · 12-10-2014, 08:36 AM

The wealth and depth of information that the forum members hold is absolutely amazing.

Thanks for helping me fill out my knowledge base on the Berlin camo! Now I have to find the matching Berlin Camo jacket and I am still on the look-out for the BGS camo pants. The "treasure hunt" continues!

**Klaus1989** · 12-10-2014, 01:00 PM

The Berlin jackets also not have the waterproof material on shoulder area and elbows, that is present on BGS jackets and give those areas different appearance of material (look like Zeltbahn material). They will always be stamped PPBln, so look closely at jackets offered as BGS as well, often sellers own photos of this stamp will betray it as Berlin Polizei!

**Collectinsteve** · 12-10-2014, 11:48 PM

Mark,

The Berlin seller can be found on www.ebay.de under the name of greenpinguinog107. He presently doesn't have anything listed, but my advice is to contact him and see if he has one to sell direct. Most of the ones he's sold have hoods.

As for actual BGS trousers... they come up for sale a few times a year. The price is quite high. I've seen them hit EUR 200, though EUR 125-150 is probably more like it. It is tough to find one that doesn't have a significant issue. Mostly:

1. Missing all of 33 buttons (IIRC that's the total count), which sucks because they are almost impossible to find at all, not to mention 33! Later model BGS/Polizei buttons are easier to find, but the color is wrong even though the size and style are identical.

2. General fading.

3. Significant wear to the knees.

4. Separation of the knee reinforcements (stitching failure)

#4 is interesting. I have found this to be a problem on BGS Sumftarn, BGS Graublau, and Polizei trousers in this style. I don't know why.

The point of mentioning these defects is to set your expectations. If you're going to wait around for a near perfect piece, I hope you are a man in excellent health with many years of life left in you

In my experience near perfect BW Splittertarn trousers come up for sale more frequently.

I've had probably 6 in total and only one has had all the original buttons. Most came without any buttons, one had US 1940s/50s buttons sewn on instead. Same with the jacket that came with it. I've got 3 at the moment and will list one on eBay in the new year. No buttons

I also have a couple spare 1958-1962 jackets.

Steve

**Klaus1989** · 12-11-2014, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Collectinsteve View Post

Mark,

As for actual BGS trousers... they come up for sale a few times a year. The price is quite high. I've seen them hit EUR 200, though EUR 125-150 is probably more like it. It is tough to find one that doesn't have a significant issue. Mostly:

Your estimates are little low actually for BGS trousers! Most sellers start them at close to EUR 200 now and one would be lucky to find them cheaper.

**Collectinsteve** · 12-11-2014, 01:39 PM

Ouch! I haven't followed the prices closely this year, but I guess it doesn't surprise me. The prices have been going up steadily for years now.

Maybe I should sell two trousers and keep one instead of keeping two and selling one

Steve

**Klaus1989** · 12-13-2014, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Collectinsteve View Post

Ouch! I haven't followed the prices closely this year, but I guess it doesn't surprise me. The prices have been going up steadily for years now.

Maybe I should sell two trousers and keep one instead of keeping two and selling one

Steve

Yes it is frustrating! I waited too long and now prices increase. I still look for pair to complete my Tarnanzug, but strangely only very large sizes have been for sale lately.

Regards
Klaus

**Marksharky** · 12-15-2014, 08:05 AM

I'm jumping back a few responses to comment on an observation by Klaus:

There is unfortunately no known photos and very little infos, but the theory, that I have heard, is that they were only produced for case of war, and were never issued (which would explain why mass-produced but unissued).

On the trousers that I have, it appears that there have been two repairs made to the fabric. Both repairs are the typical "official repair style" of using an industrial zig-zag stitch. One is on the front of the left leg (quite small) and the other is on one of the ankle cuffs where the string comes out. My impression of the pants is that they saw light service over time and were officially repaired while still in service. I t does not seem likely that the trousers would have been repaired in this manner by someone using them as surplus over-pants, or by a collector. Another possibility would be that the pants were all repaired by the company that sold them as surplus.

Is there a chance that some of these P.P.Bln. sumpftarn pants could have been picked up by the BGS for use, or possibly they were actually used in the field by the police, but we just can't find photo documentation?
It would be interesting to hear about the condition and evidence of field use on the pieces in other collections..........

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**Collectinsteve** · 12-15-2014, 11:39 AM

I have also seen used examples, though for sure most are either unissued or very lightly used. I checked my stash of photos and found that some were manufactured in 1962, though the overwhelming majority seems to be 1960.

I think Klaus' information about the uniform is probably correct that the uniform was only intended in case of war. That is the same thing BGS veterans said about their Sumpftarn uniforms in the 1950s and 1960s. However, BGS units regularly trained for war and when they did they used the Sumpftarn uniform. Berlin Polizei likely did the same thing, but trained for war far less than BGS and therefore did not use their uniforms much.

It is also possible that some Berlin trousers were used by BGS, either individually or through a large transfer of stock. As far as I know BGS did not produce any Sumpftarn items between 1963 and 1967, but still wore them for maneuvers. Shortages could happen quite easily if only for a specific GSG.

Steve

**Klaus1989** · 12-15-2014, 11:53 AM

Although it is possible, not as likely, that BGS would use Berlin stocks as BGS would have more trousers in storage due to numbers and more frequent need for them. Sharing equipment between organisations happened less than collectors would think. I mentioned as correction in my second post, that there is mention of use of the jackets in linked thread, so it is probable, that the trousers were also used very briefly in early 1960s. This is first used pair, that I have seen.

Regards
Klaus

**Dave Mc** · 08-22-2015, 03:16 PM

I have being through my items and have discovered a mint ppbln jacket and trousers.

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Berlin Polizei Sumpftarn Overpants

Berlin Polizei Sumpftarn Overpants

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