Navy Cap tallies

[David Fettes]

Just picked these up and I am assuming they are Bundesmarine. just need to know if I am correct or not. Cheers.

[David Fettes]

damm my photographic skills!

[David Fettes]

anybody?

[Gordon Craig]

Dave,

Interesting question. There is a MARINEUNTEROFFIZIERESCHULE presently located in Plon. It was first established in 1938. After the war the builidbgs in Plon served asa boarding school for children of the British armed forces. In 1956 in was re-established in Cuxhaven and in 1957 moved to Echenforde. In 1060 it moved back to Plon.
In the early days of the Bundesmarine they used sutterlin script on their cap tally's virtually identical to that used in the Kriegsmarine. The script on yours looks good, both front and back, but I don't know about the hyphen. The current cap tally for MUS Plon is one word and that is how I would have expected to see it written on a cap tally from any period.
I haven't had time to look up WAFFENKOMMANDO but that could have existed as well. Here are a couple of comparison pictures for you.

Regards,

Gordon

[David Fettes]

Thank you for the reply Gordon.

I normally do not touch Bundeswehr items and know nearly nothing about them. As for Bundesmarine then I am totaly lost.

Both tallies are full length, uncut and are 135cm long. I too have tried to search for Waffenkommando but I have had zero success.

As for the Marine-Unteroffizierschule is was the S in schule that made me pick them up

[Gordon Craig]

David,

Sorry that I didn't respond to your thread earlier. Must have missed it when you first posted it. The "S" is correct for the Bundeswehr. You can see this in one of the photos I attached previously. The Heer UNTEROFFIZIERESCHULE cuff band uses the same Sutterlin script and stayed with it until the present time. I forgot to mention last night in my post that the cap tallies in the Gothic script used after the Sutterlin type does not have a hyphen as the one you posted does. If the Sutterlin tally had a hyphen then I would have expected the Gothic type one to have one too. I couldn't find a good picture of the Gothic MUS tally in wear to post which shows it as one word so the one below is the best I could do.
This makes WAFFENKOMMANDO really weird as it would read WASSen KOMMANDO in Gothic script. So probably no sense in researching this tally. I didn't spot this late last night as I responded to your thread as I was on the way to bed.

Regards,

Gordon

[David Fettes]

The double FF of Waffenkommando is the same as the double FF of Unteroffizier

The S in schule is missing the horizontal bar that would make it an F.

So that clears that little bit up. and everything is ok with the world.

I would like to add that the font is not Sütterlin but a form of Fraktur.

[Gordon Craig]

David,

I have had the discussion before with those from the TR side of the house regarding what to call the script used in the cap tallies you posted. I have always felt, and especially in the type face used in the Bundeswehr, that Sutterlin was more accurate than Fraktur. Fraktur predates Sutterlin, and while both were used for a space of time, Sutterlin eventually became the more popular of the two. The use of the term Sutterlin is my personal choice as I said before it is more accurate in my estimation as shown below.

Regards,

Gordon

Sütterlin & Fraktur German Scripts
Deciphering WWI and WWII German script can be difficult, even for native German speakers. Here is some information useful to the collector, researcher, and historian.

Sütterlin

Sütterlin was created by the Berlin graphic artist L. Sütterlin (1865-1917), who modeled it on the style of handwriting used in the old German Chancery. It was taught in German schools from 1915 to 1941 and is still used by the older generation.

Try these websites for descriptions of Sütterlin and font examples:
Basic information: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/german.htm
Examples of German script: http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.c...bie/script.htm
The alphabet and lessons to learn this script: http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Englisch/Sutterlin.htm
Tips and tricks for deciphering old scripts: http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Engl...and_tricks.htm
Picture
Example of Sütterlin font from www.omniglot.com
Picture
Example of Sütterlin font from ancestry.com
Fraktur

Fraktur was used for printed and written German from the 16th century until 1940. The name Fraktur comes from Latin and means "broken script". It is so called because its ornamental twiddly bits (curlicues) break the continuous line of a word. In German it is usually called the deutsche Schrift (German script). Fraktur was also used for a number of other languages, including Finnish, Czech, Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian. Try these websites for descriptions of Fraktur and font examples:
Basic information: http://www.morscher.com/3r/fonts/fraktur.htm
Fraktur chart: http://www.library.yale.edu/catalogi...ic/fraktur.htm
Examples of fonts and special keystrokes for typing fraktur: http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Englisch/Fraktur1.htm
Picture
Example of Fraktur font from www.omniglot.com
Picture

Pictures showing Fraktur as compared to Sutterlin script. Sutterlin on your left and Fraktur on your right.
You are, of course correct about the s and f. As soon as I made my post I realized my error and went back to correct it but you had already made your post. I was in too much of a hurry to run out the door to a church meeting.


Regards,

Gordon

[Klaus1989]

Gordon,
to clear up, both scripts in post are only variation of Fraktur. Sütterlin is handwriting, that can be very hard to read and is completely different (like you first link show). A stilised version was occasionally used in print form. TR sometimes used Sütterlin on cufftitles. The Bundesmarine cap bands are definitely in Fraktur. Here is Sütterlin script on GD cufftitle example to contrast:

[Marine HJ]

Gordon,
to clear up, both scripts in post are only variation of Fraktur. Sütterlin is handwriting, that can be very hard to read and is completely different (like you first link show). A stilised version was occasionally used in print form. TR sometimes used Sütterlin on cufftitles. The Bundesmarine cap bands are definitely in Fraktur.

Thanks to the last participant "Klaus1989". Sütterlin is a style of handwriting, the other is definately called Fraktur. Wikipedia is spitting out quite some information. Also here: http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Englisch/Titel.htm ; not sure why the English page of this link transaltes "Frakturschrift" with "Blackletters".

Also here on the (unfortuntely only German) website of the "Bund für deutsche Schrift und Sprache e.V.": http://www.bfds.de/bfds.php?s=schriftgeschichte1 it is continued on "Schriftgeschichte 2" but without Sütterlin examples on the right. So I guess this is not a good evidence. However, I found this in 2 minutes on the web and I'm sure there's somewhere a detailled explanation where difference of Frakturschift and Sütterlin is laid out.

Rgds

Daniel