New to Bundeswehr Collecting, First Display Attempt

[Cassidy]

I only recently got the idea that it would be cool to collect BW stuff. It started when I decided to convert my GI Uzi into an MP2.

I just recently ordered a 1961 BW Reibert to start my reference library. I would like to put together and an early BW FJR or GJR from the early 60s' when they had the camouflage uniforms .

Below are some phone shots of the display that I put on at my Gun Collectors meeting,

Is there a collectors reference guide to buy? How hard is ti to put together an early BW FJ or GJR? Where does one start? I was offered two FJR Vest, brown wool jackets with the arms removed, additional pockets added with FJ badge. Are they legit or just a surplus fantasy item?

Thanks Pat

[Klaus1989]

Nice start! So you want to put together MP2-armed GJ or FJ from early 1960s to be more specific? MP2 would be carried usually by NCOs in role of squad leaders. Average soldier would have G1 or G3 by this time.

The splinter camo uniforms were phased out by 1961/62. Gebirgsjäger and FJ had their own versions. They vary by cut from regular models and are often very expensive, if you can find them (esp. GJ). If you want early 1960s, brown/olive wool field uniforms (introduced 1959-60) would be more accurate. The vests sound like fantasy items. It is common for surplus dealers to do this for some reason.

For references, look at this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=355199

Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

Welcome!

If you want to do a display of a BW FJ from the early 1960s that's not too difficult or expensive to do. If you want to do one from the late 1950s, you're in for a rough ride

First, the camouflage uniforms were only produced in 1956 and 1957. While the standard type was made in large quantities, the other variations were not. Camouflage was officially dropped in 1959, but the uniforms were worn into the early 1960s on a unit by unit basis. Since the supply of uniforms was finite, the usual condition today is pretty poor. A few very good condition items show up from time to time and go for a few hundred Euros. And those are the normal versions only.

The FJ wore three different camouflage uniforms 1956-1959:

1. "Narrow" Splinter (standard) in special FJ cut. It comes in both Blue and an extremely rare Green variant. Some say as few as a couple thousand of these uniforms were produced, pretty much only in one production run. In 20 years of collecting I've seen maybe 6 pieces for sale and know of maybe another 6 in collections.

2. "Broad" Splinter in special FJ cut. This was experimental only and produced in 1957 after the standard type went out of production Bundeswehr wide. This uniform was apparently a last ditch attempt to find a pattern that was agreeable to senior leadership. Only a few hundred were produced. I've seen 4 pieces for sale in 20 years, 2 of which I have and 2 of which a fellow collector has. He landed a jacket a few months ago for around $2200 on eBay.

3. Arbeitsanzug. This is the predecessor to the Moleskin uniform. It's in olive drab HBT cloth. It was what all BW soldiers wore on a regular basis. The camouflage uniform was worn over it when in the field. These aren't too difficult to find and the price is somewhat reasonable (usually under EUR 200 for an excellent condition set).

For helmets it's not much better. The WW2 type helmet came in a few experimental and limited production styles. They aren't seen very often (1-2 genuine ones a year) and their prices are in the $800 range last time I saw one for sale that I can remember. The BGS GSG-9 type comes up for sale far more regularly and generally don't sell for more than $200.

Field equipment is also somewhat difficult to put together. Figure $100 for the belt, maybe $200 for a reasonable amount of field gear. I'd not hold out any hope of boots.

So you are combatting two problems. Very limited supply, very high demand. Which means you have to be dedicated to finding this stuff, then get lucky, then spend a pretty big chunk of change to land it. The primary problem for you is you're going to go to war with people who view BW collecting as their primary hobby. It's why I don't have a BW general's hat... there are specific BW hat collectors out there and they are ruthless! I've seen hats go for $800+, but the uniforms only go for half that. I don't want to play that game

An early 1960s FJ uniform, on the other hand, is really easy to put together. You can get an early Moleskin uniform (1964-1967, roughly), helmet, and full field kit for probably under $250. And you can get it any day of the week for some items, not too long for others.

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

Forgot to answer this one:

Is there a collectors reference guide to buy? How hard is ti to put together an early BW FJ or GJR? Where does one start? I was offered two FJR Vest, brown wool jackets with the arms removed, additional pockets added with FJ badge. Are they legit or just a surplus fantasy item?

Fantasy.

The wool uniform, nicknamed Felzlaus, was the combat uniform replacement for Splittertarn. From 1959-1962 it had pointed epaulettes, but from 1963 to the 1970s it had rounded ones. The uniform was worn as a winter uniform from about 1963 onward as the cotton Moleskin became the standard uiform.

Not hard to find these uniforms, but often they are riddled with moth damage.

Oh, and FJ did not wear distinctive unit insignia on their field uniforms as a rule, as far as I know.

Steve

[Cassidy]

Focus

Wow, thanks much! This is a great help. Now, I could kick myself for starting so late. I did three tours with the US Army in Germany between 1981 and 2001. I was always the project partnership officer since I speak German. I was only looking for WW2 stuff. I remember those BGS FJ helmets for 70DM all over the place.

Your replies to my post have helped me frame my BW collecting goals. How does this sound as an approach?

Time frame: 1959 - 1962

Uniforms: GJR NCO and FJR NCO,

Weapon: MP2 and G3

So, I was thinking that I could use the wool uniform that replaced the splinter cammoflauge by picking this time frame. If I did find the GJR or FJR cammoflauge, I could still use it. Does this sound reasonable? Any photos of uniforms, helmets boots and equipment needed would be a great help.

Pat

[Gordon Craig]

Cassidy,

All good info above. One thing to point out though. Any time you pick either of these two unit as your collecting area you will run into the same problem. Small numbers of soldiers wore these uniforms therefor they are scarce. Even the Felzlause had special pants for the GJ. I have only seen one pair of the Felzlause GJ pants for sale and I bought them. That was several years ago and I have seen none since.
Most of this specialized stuff only shows up in auctions in Germany or through ebay.de and then the bidding get tough. Since you speak German ebay.de shouldn't be a problem for you. The high cost of shipping is though. Sorry that I can pots pictures of the GJ pants I have mentioned here. They are packed away somewhere and I could not find pictures of them in my archives although I am sure that I posted pics on this forum. If I can find the thread with these pics in it I'll post the URL.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Cassidy,

I found the thread where I posted pictures of my GJ Filzlaus pants. Post #37. I think that the whole tread will prove useful to you as it contains lots of info on these uniforms plus the field gear worn with it.

Regards,

Gordon

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=filzlaus

[Klaus1989]

On page 3 of link in Gordon's thread will give an idea of the equipment for G3-armed soldier. Also check out this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=240066

For equipment, you will need olive canvas belt, canvas y-straps and folding shovel with green leather pouch (or canvas pouch for first couple years of your time frame). For early 1960s was worn the larger gasmask can with textured rubberised paint (not the WW2 style one). Sometimes gascape. For G3, the early soft rubberised pouches are what you want. It appear, that you already have correct canvas pouches for MP2 in photo. Bw NCOs would carry the green Hensoldt binoculars and sometimes mapcase. Sometimes is worn the kleine Kampftasche on belt or große Kampftasche on y-strap d-rings and 3-part canteen with rubberised paint, but often left in vehicles (Bw was fully motorised). Messkit would be carried inside. I sold all my Bw stuff to focus on early BGS, so maybe someone else can post the photos. For now, hope this help, appear to be from copy of Der Reibert:



Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

Wow, thanks much! This is a great help. Now, I could kick myself for starting so late.

I think the camo uniforms would have still been very hard to find because so few were made and, unlike helmets and field gear, they were worn until rags. The Broad Splinter FJ set I have was worn until 1964 (7 years!!) when it was traded to a US Army NCO who kept it in a closet until I bought it off him. It looks like it was used for 7 years

Your replies to my post have helped me frame my BW collecting goals. How does this sound as an approach?

Time frame: 1959 - 1962

Uniforms: GJR NCO and FJR NCO,

Weapon: MP2 and G3

So, I was thinking that I could use the wool uniform that replaced the splinter cammoflauge by picking this time frame. If I did find the GJR or FJR cammoflauge, I could still use it. Does this sound reasonable?

Yes, it does.

Gordon's comments about the special GJ Filzlaus "Kneehosen" reminds me that there's a few other quirks.

The experimental FJ and GJ Splittertarn uniforms (yes, the GJ had their own variant and it's even rarer!) were in such short supply for soldiers at the time they also wore standard "infantry" type Splittertarn. Which means it would not be incorrect to have a FJ or GJ treatment in the standard uniform. It's just not very distinctive. I also am not sure how universally the Kneehosen were used by GJ, so you could get away with standard trousers.

One of the issues for you is that without the distinctive uniforms a FJ or GJ soldier in the 1956-1970s timeframe looks pretty much the same as any other soldier. It was only in the 1970s, IIRC, that you might start to see cloth qualification badges on the field uniform to give an idea of the wearer's specialty. Unit insignia on field uniforms didn't really get started until the 2000s time period. Which is to say it's difficult to portray specialized BW forces vs. standard BW units.

Steve

[Klaus1989]

Here is photo of GJ from early 1960s with standard trousers (and a special model of GJ gaiters). So yes straight trousers is correct also. It is quite good reference also.

[Guardian 5]

Hi Pat,

Welcome to the forum!

As stated by our fellow forum members, if you have the cash (and lots of it), you can assemble a Third Reich era FJ or GJ ensemble fairly easily. Not so with the early Bundeswehr! In many cases, we don't even know for sure what that ensemble would look like.

Below, I've attached a photo of my early '60s Panzergrenadier. As Steve has stated, putting this together is fairly easy to accomplish. Regarding your goal, I'm still grappling with what those uniforms would entail.

In equipping my "greni", I'm struggling to source a G3 that looks right. I've been thinking about getting readily available wooden furniture and applying it to an airsoft G3 (which usually come with the green plastic furniture). In your case you'll be looking for a G3A4 with telescoping stock which was carried by both the Fallschrimjaegers and Gebirgsjaegers.

In any event, I wish you the best of luck.

All the best,
TJ

[Guardian 5]

I'm not sure where I swiped this image from....

[Guardian 5]

Here's another early look.

[Guardian 5]

Images of "jump wings" sewn on the "felt louse" uniform are very rare. These came from a German website.

[Guardian 5]

There's always a chow hound in every unit. Again, note the rare site of jump wings on felt louse.