Help please

[FwSchultz]

Hello @ all,

I want to make a chart about issued Dienstanzüge "M62" and "M70" (sorry but that is the naming of a few Dealer wich I see in the www ) Heer and Luftwaffe.

I have just made the first trial and want to add some dates

My earlyest "M62" Tunics is dated 1965 and the latest 1968

"M70" earlyest Dated 11/1970 and the latest 08/2003

I have a convertet M58 (issued in 1959) too, wich was getting round shoulderboards (looks like that the normal ones get only a round cut) and Officers Boardpiping

So my question are in some other collections are other M62 dates known (1962-63-64 and 1969) and for the M70 issued ones after 2003?

Many thanks
Michael
-FwSchultz-

[Gordon Craig]

Michael,

Most collectors on the forum do not attach a specific date to a uniform. Doing up a chart would be difficult because of this. Some forum members have developed nomenclature for some of the camouflage uniforms but that was just on their own to tell one from the other as they changed over the years. I tend to follow the dating given in Kunstwadl's book "Von der Affenjacke zum Tropen tarnanzug". Most forum members would understand what you were talking about.

1-the first uniform - uniform worn in 56 and 57;
2-uniform worn after 1957;
3-uniform since 1962.

Within this dating, many changes of colour of the uniform cloth took place. Most noticeably in the Heer but in the Luftwaffe as well. Several rank and collar tab changes also took place. Also, uniforms continued to be worn after the dates I have mentioned. The list also does not include Sandfarben or private purchase uniforms.
Good luck in your project.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Gordon's post is a good one, but one uniform change missing. Starting sometime in 1970 a 4th type was issued. This has no "French cuff" sleeves and is made from a very different cloth. Buttons are also different and other details too. Between 1970 and today the uniform changed a lot in terms of color and cloth, but the basic uniform remained the same as far as I know.

Steve

[Asbjoern]

What makes it different too is the fact that only a small proportion of surviving uniforms dating between 1957 and 1970 are issued uniforms. Most of the stuff out of the 60ies are privat purchase tunics from KKB or other supliers. Out of these only a very few dating before 1962 are unchanged with their original pointes shoulderboards so its near to impossible to find a "latest" of the old type and a "youngest" of the new. Towards the end of the french cuff type I know some tunics made 1967 and 1968 (all of a relatively dark wooly fabric) but none dated later. The youngest ones without french cuffs date 1970. Tunics dating to the early 70ies where issued to soldiers of the 14th Pz Gren division foundet 1990 in Neubrandenburg (former GDR territory).

The latesd change took place very recently but I was not able to find a new ZFv 37/10 up to now. Attending an official event several officers including a general had quite dark grey tunics with a slip on shoulder boards and a three piece cut of the back section (sadly i was not able to take scientific pictures during that event). Also I heard that the peaked cap will return to the official uniform.

Jens

[Gordon Craig]

Steve and Jens,

Thanks for your comments. I knew as soon as someone said something on the thread there would be other comments

Steve,

The French cuff was supposed to be discontinued as of the 1962 uniform regulations. I know some tunics existed after 1962 that had false French cuffs and I was sure I had at least one of these in my collection but couldn't locate it when I did up my list for Michael. Is this what you were referring to as the change in the 1970s?
I don't necessarily consider a change of cloth a change in uniform. I have so many different shades of grey tunics and different cloth tunics in my collection that if I did that each one could be considered a uniform change.
Basically, up until recently when tunics and slip on shoulder boards started to be made available through LHD, the four pocket tunic introduced in 1962 has remained pretty much the same in design. Even then, I would consider the new tunic with slip on shoulder boards as a sub set of the original design.
There was a thread running several months ago with pictures of the new tunic and shoulder boards from LHD and I searched for it but could not find it. Can not date this change unfortunately. Perhaps one of the serving members of the BW can log onto LHD and add pictures of the new tunic and shoulder boards.

Regards,

Gordon

[speedytop]

Hi,

the french cuff on the normal uniform was discontinued since the new regulations in 1972.
In 1962/1963 came only the new "Zweitaschenrock" without the cuffs.

Uwe

[Gordon Craig]

Uwe,

Interesting comment. I am not sure which tunic you are referring to when you say "Zweitaschenrock". Perhaps you could explain to me just what this tunic is or the differences between it and the "normal uniform"?
Always willing to learn new information.

Regards,

Gordon

[speedytop]

Gordon,

we dicussed it a few years ago.

In red the differences in the cuffs, in blue the "Zweitaschenrock":



Uwe

[FwSchultz]

Thank you very much.

I have a large talk on friday with a Lady from the LHBw as I visit the LHD Shop in Köln-Porz to pick up a Marine Tunic wich was getting rank stripes on it.

They told me that the new Tunic are only for Selbsteinkleider at the moment and they are not issued.
The new one has different details;
-Rank Stripes are slide on and not sawn anymore
-3 piece back for a better fitting
-Fabric wich are have a better water-and stain-resistant
at last (very important )
a pocket for a cellphone

In case of the "third"-pattern of the four pocket Tunics I have follow dates in my collection.

1970, 73,74,76,78,88,89,92,98, 2004 (but in the last two cases is it a female two pocket Version)

Very interest is that that the fabric is only light different, only the female one is in a darker grey like the 1960s pattern.

And I only found only a few manufactor, the 1992 Tunic is it Leipziger Spezialkleidung (former known as GDR VEB Spezialbekleidung Leipzig).
For Fielduniforms are a few former east german manufactor but for Dienstanzüge only one is also quit interesting.

[Gordon Craig]

Uwe,

Thanks for the pictures. Much easier to see than trying to explain.
I've done some looking through my tunics and copies of ZDv 37/10. My ZDv 37/10 1968 has line drawings that show a cuff line on the four pocket tunic. My ZDv 37/10 1972 shows a line drawing of a four pocket tunic without cuffs. I have two issue (not LDH) Heer tunics dated 1971 without cuffs.
So, as Steve says, sometime in the 70s? I'd like to see a Technische Lieferbedingungen (TL) that was issued to show the change that stopped the use of a cuff.
And as Jens says, issue tunics from the 62-72 period seem to be hard to find. That certainly is true of my collection.
Always interesting to talk to you Uwe.

Regards,

Gordon

[FwSchultz]

I have two 1970 dated issued ones without cuffs, so I think they changed the TL in 1969, but I would think that they also issued the one with french cuffs in the 1970 years.

[Collectinsteve]

From memory, the last time we discussed this we figured the time for the transition to the no-French cuffs type was around 1970.

Let's also not forget that in the 1960s uniforms also had "Waffenfarbe" (piping) on the trousers legs, jacket collar, sidecap, peaked cap. I don't remember what year this was abandoned, but I think it was prior to 1969/1970???

Steve