BundesLuftwaffe 4 pocket uniforms

[SprogCollector]

I think it would be a stretch to view the jacket which started this thread as being possibly WW2 (definitely not postwar BW) based on a single B&W photo series of Adolf Galland.

In looking at the Galland photo, I think my SS jacket theory could warrant further study. Here's a photo from 1939 showing some SS-VT types. They are wearing the feldgrau wool version of the M34 SS uniform. The same pattern also existed in erdgrau drill material. The lapel style looks almost identical to the Galland jacket.

I posted my theory over with the SS guys to see what they think.

[Collectinsteve]

Definitely a fun thread

One of the pictures of Galland clearly shows, to me, that the lower pockets are external. But the pictures are grainy and officers like him did have custom uniforms which may not have complied with regulations. When you are a "hero of the Reich" you tend to get cut some slack. Like not wearing a LW breast eagle

Another reason to not get the Czech "conversions" into the mix is that they don't have pleated chest pockets.

Niedersachsen definitely has a lot going for it, but I've yet to see one with such highly angled lower pockets. And the cloth, to me, looks to be too dark. But again... without having the two pieces in front of one person at one time it's very difficult to compare colors from photos taken under different lighting conditions.

I still don't know what it is, but I'm still totally convinced it is post war something.

Steve

[NickG]

This image popped above in the SS section (discussing this thread and Galland's tunic, possibly being SS-VT!) .
The consensus so far is that Galland is just wearing a custom made tunic with similar external slash pockets on the hips like mine...

[Leroy]

If better photos can be found and the Galland tunic turns out to actually have external lower patch pockets, what would be their orientation? Slanted across the top like the flaps, or straight? What kind of external patch pocket "goes with" a slanted flap? Does anyone have a photo of such a pocket they could post? Off the top of my head, I don't recall seeing a slanted flap in combination with a patch pocket. On another note, I found in an old thread a photo of what is supposedly an OST tunic in similar cut (but no cuffed sleeve).

[SprogCollector]

These are the two photos I posted on the other thread. Just so folks can see the similarities between the SS-VT jacket and the Galland jacket.

The Galland jacket differs considerably from the jacket in this thread. Note the tops of the pocket slants on both the Galland jacket and SS jacket are below the height of the lower front button.

I'm not convinced that the Galland jacket is a custom-tailored jacket. The color appears too light compared to the fliegerblau being worn by others in the photos -- suggesting to me that the jacket might not be blue.

The reason for the large lapel is that there is a button on the underside of the (wearer's) left lapel which can be fastened to a tab under the right side collar. This allows the jacket to be worn closed to the neck. Same feature on the Lufwaffe waffenrock.

Nick: Can your jacket be closed to the neck?

[Collectinsteve]

Let's not overlook the shape of the chest pockets. Many of the wartime examples shown in these pictures have cut corners (angular) vs. the round corners of Nick's jacket. For sure that means not the same thing.

We also have to be careful when looking at pictures of items in collections, or even museums for that matter. They could be real, they could be fake. Wartime pictures, however, are far more reliable even if not perfect (B&W, blurry, features obscured, etc.)

Again, I don't think there is much chance of Nick's jacket being wartime or even pre war. I'm sure it's post war, just not sure what it is.

Steve

[SprogCollector]

Steve,
I agree with you but also willing to keep digging since anything is possible.

Note on the Galland jacket above, the pocket corners for the upper pockets are the angled-type whereas the SS jacket shown has them slightly different. The issue with the SS-VT jacket is that the officer jackets are all private purchase so no two of these are exactly the same either.

I think on Nick's jacket, my next major question is whether or not the left lapel has a button under it and a corresponding loop under the right collar? If present, the jacket was meant to be worn closed to the neck -- a feature I would not expect to be present on a postwar Polizei jacket.

[NickG]

I think on Nick's jacket, my next major question is whether or not the left lapel has a button under it and a corresponding loop under the right collar? If present, the jacket was meant to be worn closed to the neck -- a feature I would not expect to be present on a postwar Polizei jacket.

No fixed open collar ...no provisions to close the neck...

[Guardian 5]

Another cop photo for comparison.

All the best,
TJ

[SprogCollector]

Very promising, TJ! Any idea what organization and/or color?

[Collectinsteve]

Yeah, that looks VERY promising. Looks to be early 1950s of some sort. There was a lot of experimentation during the rebirth of autonomous German law enforcement. And the documentation for that time period sucks. I've got a beautiful, matching 1954 uniform that I have yet to identify. I've even seen a couple others just like it. So far no luck!

Steve

[Guardian 5]

Gents,

My apologies but I have no further information on the photo. It came in a lot of Bundeswehr photos. There is nothing written on the back to give us a hint.

Hopefully some more of the Polizei guys will chime in. Gordon knows his way around the Polizei as well.

Thanks,
TJ

[NickG]

Another cop photo for comparison.

All the best,
TJ

That's a good match, even has the French cuffs! Mystery solved! Polizei for sure, assuming its also blue!
These early West German uniforms look so much like 3rd Reich, with breeches and riding boots!
I wonder if the LW style silver piping on the collar is also present? I don't think it is...

I did find another possible clue while going through the garment more thoroughly...
some stamps inside the pocket liner!
Any idea?

"M S " ?? and perhaps a size? "5 6"

[Collectinsteve]

Piping may have been present on officer's uniforms as there is some tradition of that on Polizei uniforms.

The stamps you found are unknown to me, but they are not an uncommon style for BRD Polizei items. The MW (or MS) mark might be an acceptance stamp and 56 the size (you can verify the size easily enough). Some uniforms of this period used similar stamps as WW2 items, but my feeling is that was the exception.

My experience with Polizei items from 1950s-1970s is the markings are not very consistent from item to item, year to year. Not to mention state to state.

Steve

[NickG]

Piping may have been present on officer's uniforms as there is some tradition of that on Polizei uniforms.

The stamps you found are unknown to me, but they are not an uncommon style for BRD Polizei items. The MW (or MS) mark might be an acceptance stamp and 56 the size (you can verify the size easily enough). Some uniforms of this period used similar stamps as WW2 items, but my feeling is that was the exception.

My experience with Polizei items from 1950s-1970s is the markings are not very consistent from item to item, year to year. Not to mention state to state.

Steve

Thanks Steve!
Yes an acceptance mark of some sort makes sense...MW...??? I've had this mystery tunic for well over a decade and only now just found this stamp
well hidden inside a pocket lining...