Some early Bw pictures

[Proud Kraut]

I spent many hours in the German Artillery Society's archive the last time, finding tons of documents and pictures of all eras of German Artillery's history.
Today I would like to share some of the very early Bw shots here, maybe you'll like them as well. (Since they are not in my possession I have to use watermarks).

First shot was taken 1956 in Idar-Oberstein. Bw soldiers are trained by US personnel of the "GTAG" (German Training Assistance Group") on the British "Bren Carrier" vehicle.

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/al...6433316133.jpg

First live firings of the new Artillerielehrbataillon in 1956. The M7 not even has markings. Clearly visible the wear of overcoat during field exercises.

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/al...3561356265.jpg

Will be continued - Enjoy!

[Collectinsteve]

Excellent pics! Thanks for sharing.

BTW, I think the carrier is actually a US or Canadian made T-16, which is slightly larger/heavier than a Universal Carrier. It was usually tasked with towing small artillery pieces. They were used mostly by the Canadians.

I'm not an expert about the differences because I usually look at the wheels. 3 = Universal Carrier, 4 = T-16. Of course I can't count the wheels this time

Here is a picture of a T-16 that served with the BW:



They also used Universal Carriers too, so it could be one of those as well. According to this Wiki page the BW bought 200 of them in 1956:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Carrier

This page says they bought 300 T-16s:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_v...der_Bundeswehr

Incidentally, the US based production of the T-16 was about 2 miles down the street from my last apartment. The Ford complex was turned into a mall and was, last time I checked, largely abandoned.

Steve

[Proud Kraut]

Steve, thank you very much for your input! I wasn't aware of the different types and the fact, that these were produced in USA and CAN as well.

Here's another one. First driving instructor course in Idar-Oberstein, taken 1956 or 1957.

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/al...6564353733.jpg

Regards

Lars

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Lars,

Steve, thank you very much for your input! I wasn't aware of the different types and the fact, that these were produced in USA and CAN as well.

The T-16 is not a well known vehicle. It is so similar to the Universal Carrier, in design and use, that it is easy to understand the confusion. They were produced under Lend Lease, but most were used by the Canadians. I think the only place they were produced in the US was the Ford plant in Somerville, Mass (near Boston). I do not know much about their production in Canada.

It makes sense to me that the BW would receive the T-16 for artillery units because they were more powerful than the British types. The British used the unarmored Loyd Carrier for most of the heavier work.

Here's another one. First driving instructor course in Idar-Oberstein, taken 1956 or 1957.

The instructor must be very good at driving because I don't think he walked much

Steve

[Proud Kraut]

Hi Lars


The instructor must be very good at driving because I don't think he walked much

Steve

Yup, sports didn't seem much important these days...

Back to the T 16. Talked to a 1956's veteran yesterday. These vehicles were not used to pull guns but to carry Forward Observers. The troops hated the T 16s because of their unreliability.

Another one: Rifle M1 firearms cleaning, also taken in 1956.

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/al...6661616439.jpg

Regards

Lars

[BWilhelm]

Neato Amoebentarn zelts up on the cabinets.

[Collectinsteve]

Yup, sports didn't seem much important these days...

Back to the T 16. Talked to a 1956's veteran yesterday. These vehicles were not used to pull guns but to carry Forward Observers.

That makes a lot of sense! The T-16 was only suitable for towing small infantry guns (pack howitzers). Except for airborne and poor quality units these types of guns weren't used much by the end of the war. Maybe it could pull a 105mm howitzer, but I am not sure.

The troops hated the T 16s because of their unreliability.

Interesting! I have not seen reports of them being unreliable during the war. Production stopped in 1956 so the vehicles would be 11+ years old. Maybe used a lot, maybe not. But we all know vehicles do not like to sit around. Metal rusts, rubber breaks, seals fall apart, etc. So maybe it was worse to be BW driving one in 1956 than a Canadian driving one in 1945?

Another one: Rifle M1 firearms cleaning, also taken in 1956.

Yes, another good one! Always good to see a Garand being kept clean!

Steve

[hoover]

HI,

interesting poiunt with the T16. Drost wrote that he couldn´t find any proof for T16 used by the Bw. The 300 bought carriers were all Universal Carriers No. 1 Mk. II, No. 1 MK. II MMG and some No. 1 Mk. II Mortarcarriers (without Mortar equipment) Drost wriites that the T16 is an error of the preparations days, when the T16 was in the US Nash Lists (produced by Ford) but Universal Carriers were bought by the Canadians.

So are there any new proofs of T16 in Bw use?

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

Interesting comments on the Bren Carrier in use by the BW. The only reference that I had found on their use previously was in the Osprey Book "Universal Carrier - 1936-1948 - The Bren Gun Carrier Story". There is a comment in this book that says the British Army, I am assuming the BAOR here, gave 150 to the BW in 1956.

Regards,

Gordon

[hoover]

Hallo,

maybe we ahould rename the thread to "The Bren Carrier in Bundeswehr use"?

Okay, the Brens.

300 Universal Carrier were bought in Great Britain, most of them were of Canadian manufacture (like many of thge Britsh carriers, I think).

They were delivered to:

77 EA PzAufklLehrBtl
49 EA PzAufklBtl 3
49 EA PzAufklBtl 5
20 EA PzGrenLehrBtl
8 EA GrenLehrBtl
17 EA PzJgBtl 2
17 EA PzJgBtl 3
17 EA PzJgLehrBtl
6 EA FlaLehrBtl
23 EA ArtLehrBtl
4 EA FmLehrBtl
3 EA PzFmBtl 3
3 EA PzFmBtl 5
2 EA HOS I (Army Officers School)
5 EA for driving schools at the Army logistical school

It is said that the last Bren Carriers (official Britsh term Universal Carrier) were outsourced 1959.

Some sources say the price was 1000 DM a pice, others 10,000 DM. Don´t know for sure yet.

[hoover]

In the tank museum Munster (not far from me, for luck) is a Bren Carrier used by the Budneswehr, unfortunately in very bad shape. The Bren was recovered from a range and only painted dark green.





http://www.hartziel.de/
on that website you can find a lot of tanks on ranges etc. See "Typenliste" and Bren. But the list is quite old, a lot of vehicles are gone now for scrap or in museums. The Budneswehr doesn´t sell tanks in private hands.

[Proud Kraut]

Before this thread really changes into the Bren Carrier thread, I'll add another early picture from a former member of the Artillerielehrbataillon in Idar-Oberstein:

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/al...6130393037.jpg

Back is labeled "1957 - Bren Carer"

[Proud Kraut]

Another rather unusual universal carrier pic:



Seems to be an up-armored carrier, obviously developed as forward observer vehicle (optical range finder). Never have seen this variant before, maybe a prototype (but already with Y-numberplates!), inspected be German, US and British officers. The pic was taken 1957/58 in Idar-Oberstein. I found it in the Artillerie-Lehrbataillon's chronicle today. The Artillerie-Lehrbataillon tested all kind of international equipment for the new German Artillery.
Any further informations about this vehicle out there?

Lars

[Oberbootsmann]

First shot was taken 1956 in Idar-Oberstein. Bw soldiers are trained by US personnel of the "GTAG" (German Training Assistance Group") on the British "Bren Carrier" vehicle.

Will be continued - Enjoy!

Old thread but I'd like to share some scans from a very early Bundeswehr photoalbum of a tank training unit, showing US "GTAG" soldiers together with German Bw soldiers.

Regards, Matthias

[hoover]

Very nice picture of the US advisors.