Winter Camouflage uniforms

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

In one of my more recently acquired books"BERG KAMERADEN IN UNIFORM" by M. SEIDEL are pictures of three different types of winter snow camo uniforms. They all appear to be cut the same but they are unfamiliar to me. One is in all white while the other two have a darker pattern on them. Of the ones with a pattern on them, one has sort of a rain drop pattern while the other has strokes of different colours. I am assuming these are early trial patterns as the book dates from 1961. I have only shown the ones with a pattern. Anyone have any information on these uniforms?

Regards,

Gordon

[Nightwish]

Interesting Picture! I've never seen this snow camo uniforms before!

They are not shown in the the books I have about the Bundeswehr uniforms.

[uscob]

For sure Trial Patterns.
Here's one I posted a while ago:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=ksk+snow

[Collectinsteve]

First, let me make a squealing sound like a little girl getting a pony. There, now that I have that out of the way

This is the first photograph I have seen of either of these two patterns, but I actually have an example of the one on the left. It is simply the two black rollers of the abandoned Broad Splinter pattern (1957) applied on white fabric. The design of the top is basically the same as the 1st Model Schneetarn which was used starting 1961 or 1962 (I forget which) until replaced by the (still current?) zipper/snap type.

Here are pictures of mine:















Steve

[Collectinsteve]

The other test model appears to be part of another experimental cloth. Specifically the one pictured on page 90 of Schuster's book. Which reminds me I didn't fight hard enough for a sample of the cloth that was on eBay in 2006. Grr. At least I kept the pictures!





Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

I was hoping that someone would have an example of at least one of this type of Schneetarn. The label on your top doesn't indicate a trial pattern but one that had been actually adopted. And the date of 3/1960 is really good info. Other pictures in the book show the first pattern Schneetarn in all white and indicate that all three patterns were worn at the same time. Now if I see one of these suits, or part of one, for sale I'll know exactly what I am looking at. Here are two more pictures showing the entire suit in wear.
Gotta love books! Especially the early ones.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Gordon,

Thanks for the follow up pictures and info! Special thanks for taking the time to scan them for us. I love it! This is probably the first "new" thing I've seen about early BW camo in years.

To me these pictures reinforce the notion of a trials event. It is very, very rare for a specific branch of a military to have even 2 different uniforms introduced at the same time, not to mention 3. And then to have them all mixed together for a photo op within months of them being first issued? Unlikely.

We also know that as soon as 1962 a totally different pattern (the pine splotch type) began being mass produced. I have seen many samples of 1962 and newer Schneetarn, but not even in highly advanced collector circles have I seen or heard of these earlier patterns. Schuster doesn't even mention them as far as I know, and he's documented more rare stuff than anybody else. If this were a standard production item, even if for a limited time, I don't think this would be the case.

To me these considerations all fit a trials, not standardized production.

I don't know when the Germans started specifically specifying TrVsu on their labels, but I have always thought of it as a 1970s and later convention. Maybe a little earlier. So I don't think that, alone, confirms this piece as standard production.

A possibility, of course, is that they had intended this type to be standard production. Maybe they in fact started it out that way, then tried out some other patterns, and decided against all of them in favor of the pine splotches.

Whatever the case may be, this is probably the single rarest piece of BW camouflage in my collection along with my "reverse broad splinter" infantry type jacket. I'm damned lucky to have them!

Steve

[sgtdorango]

This is amazing!.....the splinter winter camo is the coolest winter camo i have ever seen!!....so a question about the more common pine splotch on white winter camo.... when was that introduced and until what year was it used?.....thanks....mike

[Gordon Craig]

Hi Gordon,

Thanks for the follow up pictures and info! Special thanks for taking the time to scan them for us. I love it! This is probably the first "new" thing I've seen about early BW camo in years.

To me these pictures reinforce the notion of a trials event. It is very, very rare for a specific branch of a military to have even 2 different uniforms introduced at the same time, not to mention 3. And then to have them all mixed together for a photo op within months of them being first issued? Unlikely.

We also know that as soon as 1962 a totally different pattern (the pine splotch type) began being mass produced. I have seen many samples of 1962 and newer Schneetarn, but not even in highly advanced collector circles have I seen or heard of these earlier patterns. Schuster doesn't even mention them as far as I know, and he's documented more rare stuff than anybody else. If this were a standard production item, even if for a limited time, I don't think this would be the case.

To me these considerations all fit a trials, not standardized production.

I don't know when the Germans started specifically specifying TrVsu on their labels, but I have always thought of it as a 1970s and later convention. Maybe a little earlier. So I don't think that, alone, confirms this piece as standard production.

A possibility, of course, is that they had intended this type to be standard production. Maybe they in fact started it out that way, then tried out some other patterns, and decided against all of them in favor of the pine splotches.

Whatever the case may be, this is probably the single rarest piece of BW camouflage in my collection along with my "reverse broad splinter" infantry type jacket. I'm damned lucky to have them!

Steve

Steve,

You have made some good points here. I have no idea when the TrVsu designations started but I would think that trial items would have had some designation on them, either on the label or stamped on the item itself.
Schuster doesn't give a date for the start of the pine needle Schneetarn but on page 133 he shows a picture of the first model of the pine needle suit. Compared with your picture of the rain drop pattern they appear to be identical in design. The second model, as shown on page 134 is quite different .
Yes, you are damn lucky to have this piece in your collection. I am glad that I could provide a picture of it in wear.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Gordon,

What amazes me is that something like this could have gone unnoticed by advanced collectors and researchers. The book you have must not be a common one! If I were you I'd look over those pictures 2-3 more times looking for other interesting things! It is possible there were other trial items shown in those pictures since that was a period of general change for BW uniforms. The first dedicated winter uniform was issued only 2 years before the publication of this book.

Some nations make special note of trials items, some don't. Some do it consistently, others inconsistently. Very frustrating for us collectors The Bundeswehr generally has their items marked as TrVsu (or some other designation) since the 1970s, but I can't think of seeing that sort of designation earlier. There are also a fair number of items issued as part of TrVsu trials that have no labels at all. Hats, helmet covers, and maybe other things like that.

The earliest pieces of pine needle Schneetarn I have seen have a 1962 date. I have a matching set with this date. I've seen some other 1962 pieces and I gather they made a lot of them that year because I haven't seen as many later on. I have about a half dozen Schneetarn capes that I haven't bothered to look at for dating purposes. I assumed they were issued at the same time.

There are some differences in construction between the 1960 trials piece and the 1962 production piece:

1. Trials piece has attached hood, 1962 piece has button hood

2. Trials piece hand pass-throgh pockets are overlapped and stitched along tops and bottoms. The 1962 piece is not sewn at the top or bottom, which allows the material to "flap" (I assume for easier access).

3. The chest pass throughs for Y suspenders on the trials piece appear to also allow for access to chest pockets when suspenders are not worn. The 1962 production piece is sewn only for allowing the Y suspenders to pass through, not for hand access.

It would make sense that full production of pine needle type started in 1962. Trials took place in 1960, they didn't like what they had, they did some work on both the construction and the camouflage in 1961, liked that better, then went into full production. I'd say no earlier than 1961 based on the earlier patterns being dated 1960.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Since I haven't studied early uniforms to the extent that you have I just went through the book, as you suggested, and took pictures of things that looked interesting. I have no idea if they were trial pieces at this time or in common wear.
One thing I did do was to take pictures of the third type of winter cammo shown in the book. One picture might show all three types at the same time but it is not clear. The second guy in line might be wearing the rain drop trousers and behind him you can see the leg of the striped pattern.
First up, the all white cammo. It appears to be a one piece suit instead of a top and trousers.

[Gordon Craig]

A photo where there is no doubt that the plain white suit and the striped suit were worn at the same time.

[Gordon Craig]

A reversible parka from brown to white with fur around the edge of the hood. Note the rank insignia in the sleeve of the officers parka.

[Gordon Craig]

GJ wearing a reversible anorak that looks very similar to the wartime one. Helmets painted with what looks like white wash. Back to WWII again?

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

More excellent, and very interesting, pictures! Two things immediately jump out at me:

1. A US style M-51 "fishtail" parka. I wonder if these are US surplus, perhaps used for trials (as I suspect Austrian leather Y suspenders were earlier), or something made explicitly for the BW. I have never seen a confirmed BW example.

2. A reversible mountain anorak. I can't recall ever having seen one of these before. Very nice!

As for the snow camo, it's hard to say for sure if the all white uniforms pictured are the pure white type Schuster described, or if it is one of the other models with the white side out (remember they are reversible).

One detail I can see is the hood construction. The "rain stroke" example I have has it's hood made from four sections (3 seams). The standard production 1st Model pine needle type has its hood made in three sections (2 seams). The soldier with the signal pistol is either wearing a 1st Model *or* the all white version had different construction from my rain stroke sample.

All interesting stuff!

Steve