Volksmarine uniforms in the Bundesmarine?

[Jan Klaassen]

As this question also applies to this subforum, I thought I'd ask for your opinions, too

The question:

'nAbend fellow forum-members!

What I've been wondering for some time now: did the Bundesmarine use Volksmarine uniforms after 1990, with Bundesmarine ranks on them (most likely just after the end of the DDR)?
I have seen, for example in Grenzfliegers collection, that the VM changed the rank stripes on their own uniforms during the wendezeit in 1990, but (untill very recently) never seen a picture of a VM tunic with BM ranks (never looked for it, too)... The specific jacket was stamped 1989, so perhaps a leftover from some factory, if not worn prior?

So, would this have been possible (for example with a former VM-officer who decided (and was allowed) to keep his old jacket) in the early 90's?

Thanks

Thanks

[Jan Klaassen]

The link to the "discussion" in the E-German section:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=595810

[Proud Kraut]

I don't know if this is helpfull for you, but do you know this picture of the Volksmarine soldiers visiting the Bundesmarine in Plön in Sept 1990 (scroll down to the last pic)?
http://www.google.de/imgres?q=bundes...9,r:2,s:0,i:74

[Jan Klaassen]

Thanks for the picture, it's a great website.

The uniform I was looking at was even less Volksmarine, and even more Bundesmarine. Imagine a VM uniform with BM rankstripes, without shoulderboards. That's what it looked like...

Was this done, or not during (probably) late 1990?

[Jan Klaassen]

It has arrived! Here's the pictures, any ideas on this one would be most welcome!

Let the pictures do the talking, and make this topic roll again All ideas etc are welcome as ever!

1. Full jacket


2. Sleeve


3. Close-up of sleeve stripes and star



4. Shoulder


5. NVA Stamps (D=1990)


Further details;
-Very slight signs of removed shoulderboards. It's not clear what exactly has been done, or where, it's that well done.
-It has been worn and used (obviously, it's uncertain whether this was during 1990 or by some enthusiast later on, but never mind that).
-The sleeve insignia have been applied very professionally. The sleeve has been opened at about upper-arm hight, and closed very nicely. Not sewn through the lining (except for 1 stitch on the left-arm star), that is. Sleeve stripes 'end' in the seam of the jacket.
-As far as I know, it is Bundesmarine insignia? For a Fregattenkapitan, it is, wikipedia says

Please share your thoughts!

[SprogCollector]

The only organizations I'm familiar with using the 4-button configuration are Wasserschutzpolizei and Handelsmarine.

[Jan Klaassen]

There are more VM uniforms converted during the wendezeit, still with shoulderboards, with 8 buttons. But is that out of the question or just not properly regulated (a sort of "grey area")?

[SprogCollector]

I don't understand the significance of removing the 5th buttons from the jacket? The result is a jacket which still does not conform to the Bundesmarine's 3-button style (unchanged since 1955).

How many VM officers of this rank were absorbed into the Bundesmarine?

[Jan Klaassen]

As to your first point: me neither. It sure is strange, but it appears to have happened. I still have to find written proof, or photographs of that, though.

Second question: no idea, really...

[SprogCollector]

One can only speculate as to what actually occurred during unification or prior to it?

I can somewhat understand removing the shoulderboards and adopting Bundesmarine style rank on the lower cuffs. I can't help but wonder if all Volksmarine officers were sacked upon unification?

Were there uniform changes during the run up to unification? I.e. did the VM adopt the Bundesmarine style rank and drop the buttons/boards while still existing as the Volksmarine?

The best source for relevant information will be first hand accounts from former VM officers.

I remain very skeptical that the Bundesmarine tolerated/allowed any Volksmarine uniform items to remain in service.

Not a lot of English info on the web. Some sites make reference to some VM members entering the Border Police. Possibly these are former VM uniforms adapted for use in these oraganizations? As previously stated, WSP (and presumably other non-military agencies) along with the Handelsmarine shared the 4-button configuration.

[Jan Klaassen]

To your first point: they weren't all sacked, some remained in service.
The question you pose: yes, they did change uniforms in the run up. They started using sleeve stripes all around the sleeve (though still the VM version) and used the new German cockade on the visors and other caps. The top 2 buttons were removed.
This was designed during the run up, and worn most likely directly after...

I understand your skepticism, and I did share it at the beginning. The seller just provided new info, when he told he bought/took the jacket in 1991, when the last NVA/VM units were dissolved. He states that they all ran off, and left everything they were doing behind, like they went for a coffee brake but never returned...

As to your last point, I can only ask: did any other agency in the BRD use the rank on this jacket?

Thanks for your help so far

[SprogCollector]

Hi Jan,
Handelsmarine used a pretty simple structure. Instead of ranks, bridge officers wore:
4 x rings = Captain
3 x rings = 1st Officer
2 x rings = 2nd officer
1 x ring = 3rd officer

I'm not sure about WSP ranks.

[Collectinsteve]

I know Grenztruppen and Volkspolizei uniforms were modified to wear BGS and Polizei ranks. I have a converted Grenztruppen jacket with BGS badges I bought from a BGS veteran, I also have DDR cardboard shoulder ranks that are copies of BRD ranks. Somewhere on this Forum there is a discussion about other details of the transition.

Without any direct evidence, I don't see a reason to doubt that a legitimate DDR issued uniform would be used in the very, very early period of transition. I don't think literally conforming to every part of a uniform regulation was the biggest priority during those early days

Steve

[Proud Kraut]

A similar uniform, but WITH shoulderboards, is displayed in this collection:

http://ddr.webklik.nl/page/volksmari...rmen#__frame__

Scroll down to third from last picture.

[SprogCollector]

I would tend to agree with Steve with regards to this jacket most likely being a pre-unification, transition jacket rather than being a converted VM jacket in use by a former VM officer that was absorbed into the Bundesmarine.

Evidence would seem to preclude this being used in a Handelsmarine role -- incorrect rank configuration for that organization. I would also tend to discount use as a WSP jacket -- again, the rank seems to not match what was used.

Given the low percentage of total VM officers entering into the Bundeswehr, I would presume (my uninfomed opinion, anyway) that very few officers of this rank likely made the transition. I'm sure there was some form of vetting for officers and (again my opinion) would be any officers would be immediately issued Bundesmarine uniforms at whatever rank they were authorized in the BW.