BGS Camo and Unkown Camo M43 Questions

[sammlermws]

Hello Everyone! I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I don't restrict my collecting to just one field but I do focus mainly on BRD and DDR. Anyway, on to my questions.

I picked up these items from a local collector. He claims he purchased the BGS uniform with the suspenders and breadbag in Germany in the early 80's. There are no import "Made in Germany" stamps or slashes on any of the items. So, is it common or known for Soldiers to remove the pockets and pocket flaps from these pants or do you think they were removed for civilian/private use? This set also came with a 68 dated jacket (patches removed) but didn't post photos since they are pretty common. Is the breadbag East or West German?

Thanks for any additional info you can share with me.


Left pants:





Right pants:







Next is an unkown reversable camo M43 hat. My guess is Austrian...any ideas? It is used and doesn't appear to be "commercial".

[Guardian 5]

sammlermws - First and foremost, welcome to the forum!

I'm a mere dilletante in the realm of BGS collecting and I'm sure some of our more knowledgeable experts will weigh in presently. But in the meantime, here are a few comments to get the ball rolling.

The abbreviation "P.Pr. Berlin" stands for Polizei Presidium Berlin, indicating that your second set of pants (right set) may have been issued to the Berlin Police. There is a rather lengthy thread on this very subject that I'll try and track down for you. I would view this as a positive development.

Regarding the mutilation of clothing, this is a common practice prepetuated by the German authorities prior to releasing the clothing for disposal. You may have seen articles of Bundeswehr clothing stamped with a giant "A". This stands for "ausgemustert." Both practices are conducted to prevent service members from turning in old gear for replacement when in fact the articles they are submitting have already taken in and disposed of as surplus. Your left set of pants would be the first time I've run into a case where the pockets were purposely taken off. It is common however, for the "pencil pocket" on the smock to be slashed and perhaps these trouser pockets were slashed as well. There is also a recent thread on this practice. It would appear that these trousers were made in 1968. If that is a 58 and not a 68, it may mean that this set of pants is one of the first issued in 1958.

I would venture to say that the bread bag is a reproduction Wehrmacht specimen rather than a BRD / DDR bread bag. BRD bread bags typically have leather reinforcement straps on the belt loops and a divided pocket. They are gray, blue, tan or BGS "mussgrun". DDR bread bags are generally gray and run the gamut from pretty sturdy specimens to shoddily constructed examples made for the Kampfgruppen / workers militia. These are generally stamped "MdI" or "NVA".

The interior of the hat is Austrian camo; the exterior is Bundeswehr "Amoebatarn." I'm inclined to think that this may be a "fantasy item", but am will to stand corrected if wrong.

Again, let me welcome you to the forum. BGS collecting is a very popular hereabouts and I'm sure you'll see some more feedback soon.

All the best,

TJ

[Guardian 5]

sammlermws - Check out this thread for an excellent discussion on sumpfmuster / marsh pattern camo as worn by the Polizei.

All the best,
TJ


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...izei+sumpftarn

[Collectinsteve]

Welcome Sammlermws,

TJ has got you pretty well covered. What you have is:

1. Genuine 1958 made BGS Sumpftarn trousers
2. Genuine West Berlin Police Sumpftarn trousers (not the same cloth, minor differences). Probably 1960.
3. Breadbag of unknown date or origin. Look all over, inside and out, for ink stamps. Could be 1950s ZB issue, could be repro. Not BGS, not Bundeswehr.
4. M43 hat made from 1956 Amoebatarn Zeltbahn. Made for commercial market.
5. M43 hat made from 1960/1970s Austrian Zeltbahn. Made for commercial market.

Just so you know, #1 and #2 often top $200 *each* on eBay when in decent condition. I've never seen a set of butchered Sumpftarn trousers like this before, so I can't estimate a price for it. It's worth a fair amount, though, even if just for the buttons. Heck, I'd give you $35 just for the buttons alone

My guess is some reenactor butchered the trousers to make it look like WW2 Wehrmacht Sumpftarn (totally unconvincing, of course). Hopefully not to dupe someone. The only butchering I've seen was all the buttons cut off (hence why I want some ).

BGS jackets usually have one, some, or all of the following demil damage:

1. Arm pocket cut off
2. Arm pocket slashed a couple of times
3. Arm badges removed
4. D rings cut from loops
5. Single slash cut from between the shoulders to below the waistband
6. Slash cut through the collar all the way to the waistband (basically splitting it in half)
7. Several long sash cuts through the back

Probably even more, but those are the ones commonly seen.

Steve