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Early Bundeswehr Uniform regulations vs 57er Awards

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    Early Bundeswehr Uniform regulations vs 57er Awards

    I'm not sure if this question is better suited here or in the 1957 awards forum.

    1. What is the official status of the full-sized, 1957 versions of wartime awards versus the ribbon form? Photographically, the ribbons appear to be the official form of wear for daily use are a common sight in photos from the 1950s thru 1970s.

    2. The Ordengesetz 1957 is public law/decree regarding the public wear of military decorations of prior years by the populace, in general, as well as the Bundeswehr. Decorations from the 3rd Reich era are specifically addressed with stipulations that NSDAP symbols be removed and spells out the acceptable forms of medals from this era. The Ordengesetz aligns the decorations with civil code Strafgesetzbuch § 86a (banning NSDAP symbols -- swastika, runes, etc). Section 12 lists the order of wear and manner of wear of medals for soldiers of the Bundeswehr but is quite vague beyond stating they (presumably medals?) are worn above the left pocket.

    3. The wear of 1957 versions of full-sized medal via loops on the uniform in wartime placement appears to be only in studio-type settings. These photos tend to show wearers towards the ends of their careers (my interpretation) and possibly these are photos immediately after retirement?? I suggest this since the Ordengesetz rules as apply to the general populace would then apply, thereby removing the wear restrictions for active soldiers (above left pocket only and only select awards)?

    4. In my limited interactions with former Bundeswehr/Wehrmacht veterans (direct acquisition of just 2 uniforms), it is my understanding that the ribbon forms of WW2 medals were authorized for daily wear. The wear of court-mounted versions of full-sized medals above the left pocket was appears an accepted practice on formal occassions but was not required (subject to the provisions of the Ordengesetz). I've found no evidence of the German government ordering, commissioning, purchasing, or providing 1957 versions of wartime medals to any member of the Bundeswehr.

    5. The Ordengesetz lists order of wear. The Iron Cross 1914 and Iron Cross 1939 are both listed in Section 12. However, the added comment of "and its varying grades" is omitted from this section, implying that only the EK1 and EK2 could be worn. However, further along in Section 12, items 8 and 9 provide vague guidance for "8. Other medals awarded for service in the Second World War in the order of their conferment" and "9. Further German awards in the order of their conferment". What does this mean? Ost Front medal is pretty clear. Panzer Badge? Not sure how one would wear this award as a court-mounted version above the left pocket?

    6. Is there/was there a list of ribbon forms of wartime medals published?

    7. Some examples of official portraits:
    Gunther Rall




    8. Are these photos taken immediately after retirement (i.e. technically no longer serving Bundeswehr soldiers)?
    Ludwig Bauer




    References:
    http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/or...008440957.html

    http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bu...hwv/gesamt.pdf
    Last edited by SprogCollector; 07-24-2011, 08:12 AM.

    #2
    Hi,

    "1. What is the official status of the full-sized, 1957 versions of wartime awards versus the ribbon form?"

    Both are allowed.


    "2. ... stipulations that NSDAP symbols be removed ..."

    Correct is, that NS symbols must be removed (... nationalsozialistischen Embleme).


    "2. ... Section 12 lists the order of wear and manner of wear of medals for soldiers of the Bundeswehr"

    No, it is meant in general. Each "organization" had its own regulations.


    "3. ... wear after retirement?"

    No, but the wear of full-sized medals was extremely limited, only for very special events, for active and for retired soldiers.


    "4. The wear of ... full-sized medals above the left pocket ... was not required."

    Yes, but it was the same for the ribbon bars. No one must wear decorations.


    "5. ... and its varying grades"

    I can not find that in § 12 of the Ordensgesetz?
    § 12(1) is meant only for decorations, that were worn in original size with a ribbon (e.g. only EK2, no "Panzer Badge").


    "6. ... list of ribbon forms of wartime medals?"

    There are additional regulations about the size of the ribbon bars:
    - high decorations 40mm x 12mm
    - lower decorations 25mm x 12mm
    The 9mm minis on the bars had to be like the pictures of the decorations, for the 57 versions like the pictures in the "Beilage":
    http://www.ordensmuseum.de/Ordensjou...6Jan0857er.pdf

    Uwe

    Comment


      #3
      Hi Uwe,
      Thanks for your reply. I've not had much collecting experience with the 1957 awards as they hold little interest for me. However, since I now have several uniforms in my collection from BW/WH veterans, I'm trying to understand where they fit into the collecting world. They hold a unique position in that they were not officially presented/awarded by the (then) West German government and it's an interesting scenario with the Ordengesetz dictating what the accepted 57 forms of these awards should be while not being involved in their production/acquisition (insofar as I can tell).

      So my initial question 1 was about the official status of the decorations. Would it be correct to say that while they were allowed for wear, technically they are personally acquired copies of wartime decorations and not official government awards? Certainly representative of wartime awards but not official awards within the Bundeswehr?

      Comment


        #4
        Hi,

        "... technically they are personally acquired copies of wartime decorations and not official government awards?"

        No and no.

        1957 versions are not copies. They were official, but not awarded.
        They are "originals" in a very special manner.


        "Certainly representative of wartime awards but not official awards within the Bundeswehr?"

        They represent the wartime awards, and they are official decorations in general, not only in/for the Bundeswehr.

        But: After the law from 1957 there was no award ceremony, no new award document, no issue or reissue and no reinstitution or whatever.
        There was only the allowance, to produce, to sell, to buy and to wear them. To buy for everybody without limitations. To wear only for authorized persons.

        Uwe

        Comment


          #5
          Uwe,
          Vielen Dank! Certainly a very strange situation which could create some very interesting collecting scenarios.

          Would a 1957 EK1 produced last week and purchased/worn by a 90 year old retired WH/BW veteran be any less collectible than a 1957 EK1 purchased/worn by the same man in 1960? Aside from potential quality issues with the actual decoration, would both carry the same legitimacy?

          Thanks again for your comments and also the link to the 57er awards.

          Comment


            #6
            I must split the question

            Would a 1957 EK1 produced last week and purchased/worn by a 90 year old retired WH/BW veteran be any less collectible than a 1957 EK1 purchased/worn by the same man in 1960?
            A very good question.
            For me it is nearly the same, but "collectible" includes for me an attractive quality.
            Both, in a good quality based on the manufacturing instructions, are 57 "originals".

            For the hard core 57 collectors the last one is "copy, fake, crap etc."

            ..., would both carry the same legitimacy?
            Definitely yes!

            Uwe

            Comment


              #7
              Hi Uwe,
              Thanks for entertaining my very academic question. I would agree that even with my very limited exposure to 1957 versions of awards, the initial production is/was far superior to those being produced today. I suspect by the 1960s/70s that the majority of veterans who desired legal versions of their decorations had already acquired them.

              Comment

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