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    #1

    Need help: is it buendesmarine or KM?

    Hello,
    I want to show a workshirt that I have already published in the whermacht section, where the opinions were unanimous in saying that this is a job held by the Kriegsmarine.
    On Italian forum instead a user claims that it is a post-war Bundesmarine work shirt and pants!
    Now, I also should like read the opinion of experts in this field.
    This is the link where we discussed my work uniform:

    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=525940

    The italian user also wrote to have shown the photographs to Gordon Craig (moderator of this section) and that he agrees in saying that it is a uniform of the post-war budesmarine.
    Then ask: is it possible that the section of the Kriegsmarine are wrong?
    thanks





















    Thank you very much for your help!
    Partisan
    Tags: None
    #2
    Hi!

    I am no Marine-Expert, but when I first saw the HBT Cotton Twill I thought abot DDR Volksmarine, but the buttons look more like Kriegsmarine, and Kiel was never part of DDR.

    I never saw Bundesmarine Items made this way. Also the stamps look strange to me. Bundeswehr had mostly (not allways) sewn labels.

    I would say Kriegsmarine, Also the "Bekleidungsamt" sounds more like KM.

    As I quoted: I am no Marine - Expert. Just my thoughts.

    regards
    Michael

    Comment

      #3
      partisan, your work tunic looks to be, in my opinion, that of the Imperial German Navy, the "Kaiserlich marine". There is an identical tunic/shirt shown in Johan Somers superb book " Imperial German Field uniforms and equipment 1907-1918" volume 2, chapter 13 "Imperial Marine" section, page 786, although the item is shown in a "weak" field grey colour it is known that white work uniforms were ordered to be dyed field grey as the war progressed. I am unable to post photographs...if any other member has this book, and the ability to post photographs, please do so, as I believe these items to be of the Imperial era.
      I hope this helps...S.L.
      Last edited by Steve 5; 07-22-2011, 05:37 PM.

      Comment

        #4
        Thanks guys, but now I have 3 hypotheses:

        1: for KM experts section of this forum, this uniform is from KM
        2: according to an Italian expert is BundesMarine (post war)
        3: in this section, a third user says Imperialmarine (ww1)

        I'm confused, what is truth? Please help me...

        Partisan

        Comment

          #5
          partisan...see if you can view the book I have mentioned in my last post....it is the same tunic/shirt, has anybody else come up with supporting evidence ? I think not......
          S.L.

          Comment

            #6
            I think you can safely rule out Bundesmarine as a possibility. I'm reasonably sure that the various "Bekleidungsamt" (Luftwaffe Bekleidungsamt (LBA); Marine Bekleidungsamt (BAK/BAW), Heeresbekleidungsamt (HBA), etc) ceased to be uniform providing agencies at the end of WW2. All early Bundesmarine (pre-1960) that I've seen carry stock codes beginning with either "US XXXX" and/or standard NATO stock numbers. Postwar uniform procurement appears to originate from a central agency for the entire Bundeswehr rather than from each service branch.

            Fatigue dress for the Bundesmarine looked like this (photo from 1959):
            Last edited by SprogCollector; 07-23-2011, 06:50 AM.

            Comment

              #7
              Originally posted by SprogCollector View Post
              I think you can safely rule out Bundesmarine as a possibility. I'm reasonably sure that the various "Bekleidungsamt" (Luftwaffe Bekleidungsamt (LBA); Marine Bekleidungsamt (BAK/BAW), Heeresbekleidungsamt (HBA), etc) ceased to be uniform providing agencies at the end of WW2. All early Bundesmarine (pre-1960) that I've seen carry stock codes beginning with either "US XXXX" and/or standard NATO stock numbers. Postwar uniform procurement appears to originate from a central agency for the entire Bundeswehr rather than from each service branch.

              Fatigue dress for the Bundesmarine looked like this (photo from 1959):
              I have this image of bundesmarine, 1951 dated! The sailors have a white workshirt...



              IDEACORGI write: partisan, your work tunic looks to be, in my opinion, that of the Imperial German Navy, the "Kaiserlich marine"
              This is an image of a workshirt like mine :



              and it is marked 1941!! So, I don't think it is of the Kaiserlich marine!!



              I still do not understand why the moderator Gordon, said to the Italian user of italian forum "Blitzkrieg" who has contacted him, that this is a shirt of bundesmarine ...
              Is it possible that he did not see all my photos published and that the italian user has sended to him only some pictures?
              Please Gordon, can you explain this? And write here what you think about? In your opinion is it a bundesmarine work uniform? or a KM work uniform?
              In the firrst case, how do you explain the stamp on my uiniform and the date 1941 stamped in second uniform?
              Thank you very much and excuse me my bad english (I hope you understand what I mean...)

              Comment

                #8
                partisan...I still stand by my original comment...Imperial origin...notice the zinc bottons, 4 hole (Imperial) as opposed to Third Reich buttons being 3 hole. Do not forget, many items held by Imperial clothing stores were often passed on to the Reichswehr, and then absorbed onto the Wehrmacht, some wartime items eventually turning up in the Bundeswehr !..... Stamps can be put on at anytime.
                S.L.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Just to inform you:

                  The picture from 1951 does not show Bundesmarine.

                  It shows eastgerman (DDR) Sailors (on the Segelschulschiff "Wilhelm Pieck") - not westgerman sailors.

                  I still tend to Kriegsmarine (or Reichsmarine). The more I look I guess I also see a "1942" in the stamp...
                  But maybe you should ask KM experts.

                  good luck!
                  Michael

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Irideacorgi View Post
                    partisan...I still stand by my original comment...Imperial origin...notice the zinc bottons, 4 hole (Imperial) as opposed to Third Reich buttons being 3 hole. Do not forget, many items held by Imperial clothing stores were often passed on to the Reichswehr, and then absorbed onto the Wehrmacht, some wartime items eventually turning up in the Bundeswehr !..... Stamps can be put on at anytime.
                    S.L.

                    I don't know, bt if the reason is the number of holes on buttons, look this image of a workshirt with many KM mark and stamp (year 1937) and it has buttons with 4 holes... So, I dont think this is a valid reason





                    IDEACORGI WRITE: Just to inform you:

                    The picture from 1951 does not show Bundesmarine.

                    It shows eastgerman (DDR) Sailors (on the Segelschulschiff "Wilhelm Pieck") - not westgerman sailors.

                    I still tend to Kriegsmarine (or Reichsmarine). The more I look I guess I also see a "1942" in the stamp...
                    But maybe you should ask KM experts.

                    good luck!
                    Thanks, I hope sombody KM expert can write something...

                    Don't forget that I have already published on KM uniform section and the users write that it's a KM work uniform!
                    Tha problem is that on italian forum, the moderator wrote that is most probably it is a post war uniform (bundesmarine) and to give more strength to his thesis, he wrote that he sent the images to the moderator Gordon of this forum W. Award , who told him that it's probably a uniform bundesmarine, for this reason, I would ask Gordon if he has seen the same photos I posted in this topic and if he confirms that it is a post-war uniform!

                    Thanks
                    Partisan

                    Comment

                      #11
                      partisan....Than theres no more to be said...make your own mind up from the evidence you have.....
                      Ta Ta, S.L.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by partisan View Post
                        I have this image of bundesmarine, 1951 dated! The sailors have a white workshirt...





                        This is an image of a workshirt like mine :



                        and it is marked 1941!! So, I don't think it is of the Kaiserlich marine!!



                        I still do not understand why the moderator Gordon, said to the Italian user of italian forum "Blitzkrieg" who has contacted him, that this is a shirt of bundesmarine ...
                        Is it possible that he did not see all my photos published and that the italian user has sended to him only some pictures?
                        Please Gordon, can you explain this? And write here what you think about? In your opinion is it a bundesmarine work uniform? or a KM work uniform?
                        In the firrst case, how do you explain the stamp on my uiniform and the date 1941 stamped in second uniform?
                        Thank you very much and excuse me my bad english (I hope you understand what I mean...)
                        Hi Partisan,
                        The 1951 photo cannot be Bundesmarine since the Federal Navy was not created until 1955. As already noted, these sailors appear to be East Germans .

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by SprogCollector View Post
                          Hi Partisan,
                          The 1951 photo cannot be Bundesmarine since the Federal Navy was not created until 1955. As already noted, these sailors appear to be East Germans .
                          Okay, excuse me and thanks
                          can you explain me why on the image is write "Budsarchive dezember 1951" ?
                          Already existed the Eastern marine?

                          Partisan

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by partisan View Post
                            Okay, excuse me and thanks
                            can you explain me why on the image is write "Budsarchive dezember 1951" ?
                            Already existed the Eastern marine?

                            Partisan
                            Bundesarchiv is the federal archive and holds photos going back to the 1900s and earlier. It has no relation to the Bundeswehr. They are simply photos the government holds in its collection.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Interesting thread and discussion. I am not able to provide an answer to your question, however SprogCollector is spot on about the Bundesarchiv. You might be able to find more photos to your question from this archive site.
                              Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did. Quote - Sophie Scholl - White Rose resistance group

                              Comment

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