Collar piping on 1960s jackets

[PASSAUER8884]

Hello All,

I recently aquired a mid 1960s Heer 4 pocket dienstjacke, its in great shape, with all insignia except for the removed collar piping (signals yellow). Its a jacket worth making right. So I have a couple of questions:

Is the collar piping (in general) the same as the type used on shoulder boards? If so does anyone have any to spare for sale/know where to get some?

Why does one find so many of these jackets with removed piping? Was this part of the surplus process? Was it to conform to later regs?. I've seen or owned 3 of these that this, just the collar piping is gone.

Daniel

[Gordon Craig]

Daniel,

Sorry it took so long to answer your question. I have never seen a tunic with the arm of colour piping so I can not advise on what it would have looked like. On page 36 of Lothar Schuster's book "Das Ausstattungsoll der Heeresangehorigne Der Bundeswehr von 1955 bis 2010" he makes the following statement
"The collar came with an arm of colour Paspel (enlisted men and NCOs o. P.), an altgoldfraben cord (NCOs M.P.), a silver-colored cord (officers) or a gold-colored cord (generals) . The weapon-colored Paspel was omitted in the 80's again."
He is not clear in his book as to when the arm of colour piping was instituted for the enlisted mern and unteroffizieres ohn Portepee but in this whole section he is talking about uniforms introduced in 1962.
Regards,
Gordon

[PASSAUER8884]

Gordon, makes sense. This tunic is dated 1966. Just from what I have seen in photos it looks to be the same as shoulder board piping ( why have two different sizes). Thanks for the help! I'll post some pics later.
Daniel

[Gordon Craig]

Daniel,

It probaby was the same as the shoulderboard piping. The Luftwaffe seems to have used the same stuff. Looking forward to the pictures.

Regards,

Gordon

[Forseti]

Hello!

Even if I would not resew something like Litzen etc. to "upgrade" a tunic I can tell you definitive that the material of the Kragenlitze is the same as used for shoulderboards. I know, because I have one of this rare tunics in my collection.

best wishes from germany


Michael

[Gordon Craig]

Michael,

I also would hesitate to replace removed piping. I do not think it could be done successfully and look original. I would really like to see your colour piped tunic. If you can not post pictures and would be willing to have pictures of this tunic posted on the forum you could send the photos to me and I would post them for you. I would not use the photo anywhere else whithout your permission. If you would like to send me a photo of your tunic please send me a PM and I'll send you my email address.

Regards,

Gordon

[PASSAUER8884]

Gents,

So what is the deal with these tunics that have the collar piping removed? I have owned 3 1960s era tunics that all have had just the collar piping removed. Was this this to conform to later regs? Part of the surplus process? Like when one sees slashed BGS uniforms?

[PASSAUER8884]

I asked that question below already sorry for the redundancy that I apologise for

[Forseti]

@Gordon:

Yes I will make a few photos within the next days.

What must I do to post photos myself? Become assoc.-member?

Is it also possible to hyperlink those pictures from a webpage? (such as those picture webpages or own webspace)?

Thanks for your answer

@Passau:
I dont know. I prefer the idea that they had been removed when regulations was changed. I dont think they removed them when making the A-Stamp. Why should they? Or had ALL insignia on those tunics you own removed?

Have you ever seen trousers with removed piping? Or did they just not wore them any longer?

[PASSAUER8884]

Good point. Of the three I own/have owned, had dates of 64, 66 and 69 respectively. All had collar tabs and shoulder boards. 2/3 had verbandsabzeichen still attached. The 1966 one I'm just going to leave the piping off, it still looks nice and lets face it, there arent many people who would know the difference anyway, just us loyal collectors

It does have evidence of removed Gefreiter stripes, those I need to find and replace...

[Gordon Craig]

Michael,

Becoming an Assoc. member gives you the right to post pictures. You can post pictures from a hosting service but we prefer that people not do that. The hosted pictures only last a short while then they are removed and when people go to look through the thread and there are just notices saying the picture has been removed it really damages the thread content. I am sure that you have noticed that already. I consider the annual fee, which I beleive is still US$25.00, is one of the best deals around. Without the supprot of the annual fees Seba would not be able to keep this web site operating.

Re the removed piping. I don't beleive that I have ever seen a tunic that has had the piping removed. I'll have to have a closer look at my tunics. Schuster says in his book that the piping was used up to the 1980s. I find that hard to believe as piped tunics are so rare. If piped tunics were used for almost 20 years I would think that more would be available to buy than there seem to be. Over that period of time some would have been declared surplus and sold. Schuster has a small picture of one in his book. The other thing that could have happened to them was that the coloured piping was removed when the owner was promoted and replaced it with the bronze coloured piping. Obviously this subject needs more research.

Regards,

Gordon

@Gordon:

Yes I will make a few photos within the next days.

What must I do to post photos myself? Become assoc.-member?

Is it also possible to hyperlink those pictures from a webpage? (such as those picture webpages or own webspace)?

Thanks for your answer

@Passau:
I dont know. I prefer the idea that they had been removed when regulations was changed. I dont think they removed them when making the A-Stamp. Why should they? Or had ALL insignia on those tunics you own removed?

Have you ever seen trousers with removed piping? Or did they just not wore them any longer?

[Forseti]

Hi Gordon!

Very good comment.

Same thoughts! I have also lots of M62 Tunics that definitive had never any piping on them. I really never had a tunic in my hands were the piping has been removed (as far as I can say from the seam).

As far as I have in mind Kunstwadl wrote that the piping on collar and Trousers had been use short time. Unfortunally Kunstwadl often uses phrases like "sometime" "short time after" etc. without bringing exact dates.

I ve read also the sense in Schusters "Ausstattungssoll.." that the practice of "collarpiping" had been used till the 80ies and do not believe it at all. All "modern" tunics (I myself call them the M70 - these are the ones still in use) I saw in the 1980ies and now never - and I really mean never - had any piping.

Schusters Book is a good source and a must-have. The pictures are great but the text is very short (on caps you will find nearly no explanation at all), and also few mistakes. Why not on that point?

So I don t believe it too.

It is good to hear that you ve got same thought on that point!

As far as I can say piping was used short time (because its unpracticall). Not early in the 60ies and no longer than 1970. Its my guess. We need a proof though.

Best regards
Michael

[Asbjoern]

It may be right that the piping was still conforming to the regulations in the80ies ... but I agree that there are no issued tunics (and trousers) that have a coloured textile piping (beside the schoulderboards for sure). But I own a custom made uniform of a SU that purchased his uniform in the early 70ies without french cuffs but with coloured piping at collar and on the trouser ... the same is with visor hats in general and piped ones in special... they can still be purchased and worn but this is very uncommon these days. As stated in another thread especially the jacket is hanging in the closet most time. Even those soldiers serving in the ministery - which have no "legal Chance" to wear the field dress every day - avoid the dress jacket by wearing the pullover and the dark grey "blousson" ...

Jens

[PASSAUER8884]

WOW! What a thread that has become of this! The 1966 jacket that I have is very interesting, in the corner of the collar notches are the tiny remains of blue collar piping, removed long ago. The shoulder boards and collar tabs are yellow, but are for sure depot/factory applied and have been there awhile. When one turns the sleeves inside out there is evidence of at least 2 different verbandsabzeichen that were applied then removed, as well as Gefreiter and HGefr. stripes applied/removed.

My guess is most of these jackets were issued, turned in and modified/updated several times over thier lifespan and kept in service. Hence finding a un-messed with one is tricky. With mine, I'm just going to replace the verbandsabzeichen and call it good.

[Steve 5]

[IMG][IMG]100_3840[/IMG][/IMG]
Gents..here are some shots of a medical service tunic, dated 1968 with coller piping, but no arm badge. It just cost me £10.00 !
steve.

I have edited this post, I thought I could post images.....obviously not, I will have to pay up and stop being such a tight wad !