Camo Smock Question

[SCHUPO]

Gents,

I picked up a pullover camo smock with several other items over the weekend. It appears to be made of the BGS pattern camo on the outside and is reversable to white on the inside. It is a pullover with an integral hood that has a rolled up mesh face veil secured by two dished Zelt style metal buttons and tabs. The front has a head opening to the mid-chest with lace up fastening. The front has two vertical slits (no pockets) to access uniform pockets on the tunic. A drawstring waist with the same flat cord as on the lace up front and tabs at the wrists fastening with the same Zelt style buttons as on the hood.

The seller thought it was an early unmarked BGS smock. I am not familiar with this pattern of smock at all. Is anyone aware of the Bundeswehr or BGS wearing this style of garment?

[Collectinsteve]

Definitely not BGS. Sounds like a reproduction WW2 Sumpftarn Type 1 smock. I say "reproduction" rather than "original" because China has been cranking out these things by the thousands. They have also been reproduced by companies in Germany, France, US, Japan, and others for the last 40 years. There's no shortage of reproductions floating out there, some of which are very close to the originals and well used. Therefore, odds are it's not original.

Here is an example:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Schlupfhemd-Schlu...#ht_1559wt_891

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Here is the smock that George was talking about abaove. He has asked me to post pictures of it.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

The sleeve end.

[Collectinsteve]

Nice smock! Definitely commercial production, but I've always had a big soft spot for Type 1 and Type 2 smocks.

I'd say someone either happened upon some genuine bolts of cloth or used one of the many reproduction cloth runs to make this smock. Could even be custom made. I'm about to have a factory in China make me a couple dozen custom made uniforms in 6 or 7 different camouflage patterns. If you know the right people you can get even single examples made in whatever patterns the factory has available. BDU, ACU, and various German WW2 patterns are pretty much standard for these guys.

Steve

[SCHUPO]

Thanks Steve. I bought this with some other East- and West- German stuff from a fellow who did not know what it was either. He thought it to be early BGS.

Anyway, it is a well made reversable smock and does not seem to be trying to be a reproduction of the WWII Heer smock. The Zelt style buttons are obviously postwar as are the tie strings and face veil so no telling who made it. I have never seen another of this type but as you say it may be one for a reenactor.

George

[Collectinsteve]

Hi George,

Since BGS Sumpftarn is based on WW2 Sumpftarn, it's not a leap to see how someone thought they could make a good looking reproduction out of some BGS cloth. The tailoring looks top notch, so it might have been made in Germany or the US, or more recently in China. If someone had the cloth lying around (I knew a German reseller who apparently had large quantities on hand a few years ago) they would probably be interested in making something out of it since you can't make much money off of raw cloth.

Question for you... you say it's reversible to white. Is it just one layer of cloth, double printed camo on one side and white on the other, or is it two layers of cloth?

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

BTW, one reason this can be easily ruled out as early BGS is the pattern. The earliest Sumpftarn used for uniforms did not have spaces between the red and green shapes.

And let's not overlook the obvious... the BGS and BW were especially careful to not allow their new uniforms and equipment to make them look too much like they walked out of the Third Reich. There's no way they would have allowed a near exact Type 1 smock to be even trialed.

Steve

[SCHUPO]

Steve,

The smock is made from one layer of heavy cloth with no bleed through on the white side. The seams are all double sewn with no whipstitch or exposed edges.

The more I look at it I see it is almost identical to the WWII pattern. The differences I can see appear to be that the flaps on the sides have camo on both sides instead of white on one side. Also, there is no drawstring around the face of the hood and the gauze face veil is rolled up and fastened with two tabs that button to the outside of the camo side of the hood.

Curious and curiouser...

George

[Guardian 5]

George - For the sake of comparison, please see this Wehrmacht smock (Sumpfmuster-44) from Peterson's Wehrmacht Camouflage Uniforms and Post-War Derivatives.

Are there any markings by chance? Peterson reports that they were printed inside the breast pocket-access flap opening and should include the size and a Reichsbetriebnummer. The button here looks like blue glass, although dish type metal and plastic buttons were also employed.

All the best - TJ

[Guardian 5]

Here we see Daniel Peterson himself modeling the first type BGS marsh pattern smock.

I think someone snagged one of these recently and posted some close-up pictures. Can anyone remember where they reside?

All the best - TJ

[Collectinsteve]

TJ,

Yeah, the BGS smocks come up for sale fairly regularly. The price is generally a couple hundred EURs on eBay. There's no mistaking one of these for anything else. Very unique cut, cloth, and printing.

Which reminds me, I promised to take some good pics of the different BGS Sumpftarn items and post them to one thread. I'll see what I can do to make that happen.

George,

It's an interesting piece you have there, for sure. The normal BGS cloth, and even the reproduction printings, I've seen are not white on the reverse side. Someone made this cloth specifically for reversing IMHO. And the quality tailoring of the smock is also interesting. My theory is this was made for WW2 reenactors, possibly in Germany, prior to the avalanche of Chinese uniforms.

Steve

[SCHUPO]

Thanks Steve.

The smock is entirely sterile with no markings whatsoever. No markings on the camo flap access slits or near it. No cloth run numbers, nothing at all. Just a very well made smock of good heavy fabric.

George

[Collectinsteve]

Bringing this thread back to the top...

George,

Today I got my hands on the exact same smock you have. It's every bit as beautiful as I thought it would be. Extremely well made, fantastic cloth, and something I'll probably hold onto even though I rarely keep fake/repro items.

This one came from a friend's collection. He's had it quite a while, I think. At least he can't remember when/where he picked it up and his memory is generally pretty good about details like that.

The colors are very close to BGS, but the pattern does not appear to be the same. I can do a side by side comparison sometime soon. Right now it's in a pile with about 50 other things.

Steve

[BWilhelm]

Necro posting in an old thread here. The smock in question here is made in China and sold by Barry Lyndon. I have a couple of them, one to wear (which I do alot...I love these things) and another for when the first one wears out. Yes, they are very well made but I think they would be well served by a different stitching design. Here's a link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-German-H...item5d34c453cb