BW Jacket "Transition"

[PASSAUER8884]

I was wondering if anyone had some knowledge on when the Bundeswehr swiched from the older 1960's style of Deinstanzug that had the cuff turnbacks and was made from thicker greyer material to the style that is used now.?

I have a 1969 dated artillery Oberfeldwebel jacket that conforms to the "old" regs, thicker wool, cuff turnbacks and old gold flat rank chevrons.

And I also own a 1971 Flugabwehr gefreiter's jacket that is the "newer" style, thinner wool blend material, plain cuffs and lighter in shade (like worn now).

The third jacket in question is my father's jacket he had privately made in 1969 for his wedding...that one has plain cuffs and is made of a much lighter shade as well. He told me that according to his best memory it was made "as to the regulation" He was a Stabsunteroffizier at the time.

I will try to post some pictures as soon as I can.

[Collectinsteve]

Somewhere we had a thread about this. It seems somewhere around 1970 the transition took place. However, private purchase jackets after this time period sometimes had the "French cuffs" and old jackets were sometimes worn in technical violation of regulations.

It appears that NCO arm rank was moved to the shoulders around 1974. This surprised me as I always thought the change was done at the same time as the uniform change. But apparently it wasn't!

Steve

[PASSAUER8884]

I'll have to look at his album again, maybe I have the jacket he had when he left the heer in '73. Everytime I ask him about "this cap" or " how did this look" from his service time almost 40 years ago, he just in his own quiet German way shakes his head and says " Son, It was along time and many Maß ago"

The 1971 gefreiters jacket has the dull metal bars on the shoulder, no evidence of sleeve style. Did these ranks change at the same time as the NCOS?

[Gordon Craig]

Like most changes of uniform style, this is hard to pin down. Sometime in the 1960s, probably the later half, tunics with false cuffs, actually just a sewn line where the top of the cuff used to be, started to appear. Sometime later, the sleeve became plain without any sign of a cuff. False or otherwise. However, uniforms have a wear out period so tunics in wear when the cuff disappeared continued in wear for several years. As Steve has said, tailor made uniforms seem to have a lot of latitude as to cuff/no cuff so trying to say on X day of Y year tunics no longer had cuffs is not possible. Don't knock yourself out trying to assign a date to the disappearance of cuffs. Just accept the date in the jacket and go from there.

Regards,

Gordon

[PASSAUER8884]

Gordon, Good point. I have had to rely entirely on the memories of my father and uncles to learn about BW items from this era. I have tried looking for refference material in Germany when I visit over there, but there is a real lack of anything to help a "intermediate" collector like myself, especially here in the states with Bundeswehr items.

I wish I could find Jorg Hormanns book, my German, while not perfect is good enough to where I could really benifit from it.

[Collectinsteve]

Regarding your father's memory... it has been my experience that most military personnel don't pay attention to the details when they are in uniform, not to mention remember the details 30-50 years later! In fact, I've had conversations with people in uniform and I know more about the clothing they are wearing than they do. This doesn't mean I'm brilliant, it is more a reflection that collectors are focused on the little details while the soldiers are focused on doing their jobs. As it should be

Veteran information is important, sometimes critically so, but it should not be taken as fact without question. And the more time that has gone since the time period in question, the more one needs to keep this in mind.

Anyway...

I find it interesting that the 1971 dated jacket has metal insignia on the shoulders. I would ask your father if he held that rank in 1974 or later. The reason I ask is my understanding is that metal arm rank was introduced around 1970 but there has been evidence presented here that shows it to be more like 1974. Your father's jacket appears to support my previous beliefs. I am now wondering if I have to change my beliefs again!

Steve

[Asbjoern]

I wish I could find Jorg Hormanns book.

...o.k., its nice to get all books on our collecting theme .... but the Hoermann is hard to get and a little outdated today. Try to purchase the new book Hoover anounced: "Das Ausstattungssoll des Heeressoldaten 1955 - 1990" . While not perfect its much more detailed as Hoermann and Kunstwadl !


Regards,

Jens

[Gordon Craig]

Jens,


Interesting comment about the three books. I imagine that there are still a number of reasons to buy all of the reference books that one can buy. I know that there are some places that Hoermann's book is better than Kunstwadl's. Trouble is you have to buy all of the books to see which is better where. I find Hoermann better in the early years than Kunstwadl. Perhaps, as you say, this new book makes up for the missing info in the other two books. Probably the best place to start, as you have said, for an "intermediate" collector is the newest book on the market.

Regards,

Gordon

[PASSAUER8884]

Thanks for all the comments on the subject! My dad is the reason I started collecting BW items, and to this day he still doesn't quite understand why.

The thing is there is such a HUGE base of knowledge about third reich items, but almost nothing my comparison to post war items.

I have seen/owned enough material to know what I'm looking at, but the some of the details still escape me... I'll be looking for the mentioned books!

Thanks everyone!