Riot Police Gear?

[Gene T]

This stuff is probably too recent for most of you to consider collectible, but now that the Germans have decided to make all their cops look like they should be patrolling the streets of New York City (or perhaps delivering mail), maybe the green stuff will gain some sentimental value decades from now. In the mean time, this rather complete set makes for pretty cool catcher's gear, I think:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=743136

The arm patch indicates that this particular set was issued to some unit of Landespolizei from Mecklenburg Vorpommern, so I thought I'd be able to find images of it being worn during the anti-G8 riot in Rostock a few years back. Instead, the handful of clear pictures of riot police in action that I've come across so far all show the officers wearing Hessen arm patches, like this one:

http://www.life.com/image/74401898


Is it common for Landespolizei from one state to be sent to another state to assist in some major event? Hessen and Mecklenburg Vorpommern aren't even neighbors. Here in the US, there are certainly plenty of examples of inter-jurisdictional cooperation, but I don't think I've heard of instances where entire police units from one state would cross state line to work in another.

I must say that of the myriad German riot gears I've seen now in my brief search, the set being surplused is one of the more badass-looking ones.


Gene T

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Gene,

Thanks for the Sportsmans Guide link. I hadn't seen this yet and am definitely considering it. I have a half dozen riot uniforms from various states and time periods, plus a full riot vest with kevlar inserts and two Level III ballistic plates. Etc. I don't know why I like the stuff so much. I'm trying to get a current set of the blue (nearly black) uniform. I'm close, but so far not successful.

According to one source the Germans had about 16,000 police and 1,000 soldiers on duty for the G-8 event (remember, police can't be on duty 24/7 several days in a row!). How often does a single Staat require that many police? Once in a very, very long time, so I doubt the rather small Mecklenburg Vorpommern had that sort of resources and therefore others had to be brought in from the outside. Remember, unlike in the United States all German police are ultimately under Federal control, so I would imagine moving specific units for specific reasons over borders isn't as big a deal in Germany as it would be in the US. On top of this, it was a HUGE international event and the success/failure of security would be an issue for Germany as a whole. A big deal indeed

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

And since I was going to post this picture last month, I figure now is as good a time as any



Notice the special riot police rank on the right arm. I received a couple of these velcro rank in a bag of misc. stuff and they were marked "Neiderlandische". It took me a long while to identify them as BRD Polizei riot police rank. Fits on this particular uniform perfectly.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Gene T,

This stuff is very collectible, at least as far as I am concerned and this is the time to buy. Remember, when things are first declared surplus there is lots of it about but when you want to add it to your collection a year or so later there is none in sight.
As for Landespolizie from different states being involved in the same riot, that is to be expected.. There is Chef der Landespolizie at the Federal Police HQ that is in general control of the Landespolizie of all states. He can direct that Landespolizie from several states co-operate in a certain instance when one state does not have enough Landespolizei to control the situation. He is also resopnsible for standardizing ranks, uniforms etc.
I recently purchased a complete set of green uniforms that had belonged to one Landespolizei officer. He had served in Kosovo so a lot of his shirts had the Federal colours on the sleeves. It included his field uniform, service uniforms complete with hats, leather coats, light wieght armoured vest, sweater, socks etc. You could call it history in a box, all be it a large box!
Steve,
Your vest and riot police arm badges are very interesting. I had not seen the arm badges before. Too bad the Sportsmans shop won't ship that armoured set to Canada. Probably a good idea. My wife would kill me! Nice pictures for reference though.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gene T]

You are no doubt correct about the differences between Germany and the US, Steve and Gordon. Here are some officers from Berlin taking part in the same operation:

http://www.life.com/image/74390622

I also found another source for these suits, with more detailed photos (not as good a price as SGDE, but maybe they'll ship to Canada?): http://www.keepshooting.com/selfdefe...policegear.htm




My impression from looking at the news photos is that the standard practice in Germany is to wear the protective armor on the inside, shielded from view by those more benign looking jackets and trousers (unlike in the vendor display) - I'm guessing that this is so that the riot officers would not have that robocop/ironman-esque aggressive look to them? In nations where police intimidation is considered an asset, this practice would be seen as both wasteful and silly.


Gene T

[Collectinsteve]

Gene,

Yup, the new style appears to be some sort of light, but tough, baggy jacket over body armor. I'll post some pics of others in my next post. It also shows the rank in use on the back of helmets and body armor.

Gordon,

So true about availability being best when items first hit the market in mass quantities. Having said that, the optimal time to buy after the initial supply is reduced and retailers (like Sportsmans Guide) are looking to dump the rest. You can usually get it cheaper than the "early adopters". The trick is sometimes the initial supply is all there is!! If you miss than then you might be stuck having to pay much more later on.

Example 1 - Swiss camouflage uniforms used to go for $400+ until the very early 1990s when the Swiss switched uniforms and sold off everything they had. Prices were $80 for a while, which was a bargain compared to $400. But we are almost 20 years later and you can still find places selling them for $50 a set. In this case waiting would have been better.

Example 2 - in the early 1990s I went to a surplus shop that had stacks of DDR Polizei riot shields and truncheons. They wanted something like $40 for one. I haven't seen one like it since, not to mention what the shipping would cost to get one over from Germany. In this case waiting resulted in missed opportunities not to be repeated.

I don't mind problems like Example 1 too much, but Example 2 type problems really bug me. So I'll be purchasing a set or riot gear from Sportsmans Guide

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

Various pics of green and blue based riot police uniforms, some with jacket (sometimes trousers too) over the body armor, sometimes with the body armor on top. Perhaps this is decision based on how much they want to intimidate the crowd?















Steve

[Gene T]

Interesting photos, Steve. It would appear that female officers are deployed in fairly significant numbers in these situations. I wonder if this is also part of some conscious effort to "soften" the police presence (in order to avoid provoking the hooligans perhaps?), or if it's just a reflection of the normal male to female ratio in the modern German police force.

I notice that no one in these photos is wearing a codpiece (circled below) outside their trousers. The mere sight of this thing could have started a riot by itself.





Gene T

[Gene T]

Just to add a point of reference for those who might be considering ordering this set.

I received mine from SGDE today. All the parts are there. The base vest, gloves and plate armor look well used, but the jacket and trousers appear brand new. The jacket has never had an arm patch, nor any provision for the rank tape.

I had ordered a "Large", but everything in the set, including the duffle bag, is marked "medium". However, the original specification manual that came with the set indicates that size "M" corresponds to jacket sizes 50 - 54. So whoever did the sorting may have made the right choice after all.

All the armor plates are made out of a light but rigid alloy (aluminum?), including the ergonomically articulated inserts in the base vest and gloves, which are not shown in the vendor listings:






What is interesting is that the vest I received differs in some small details from the ones illustrated in the vendor listings. Namely, it's missing a couple of pouches between the central radio pouch and the flapped side pouch to the wearer's right.

The one below is mine. The maker label on the inside shows a 4-digit postal code, suggesting pre-'93 manufacture:




The next illustration is taken from a German vendor's site (where the vest alone is listed for 100 Euros: http://www.bestprotection.de/shop/Ko...anti-RIOT.html). It shows a '95 dated label, with a 5-digit postal code. Note the extra pouches, the more vertical angle of the pistol pouch, and a somewhat more rounded profile of the shoulder closure flap:




Note also that the '95 label shows five standard sizes (in contrast to the four sizes listed in the pre-'93 spec manual - S, M, L, and XL - which nevertheless covered almost the same size range: 46 - 62), with size "M" now stopping at 50, like the earlier size "S" (which covered sizes 46 - 50).

Incidentally, the cover of the spec manual shows yet another variant of this vest, with a slightly different radio pouch (vertically set, rather than slanted, with some sort of tab in the middle), two pouches on the right ventral flap (instead of one or three), and a reversed shoulder closure flap arrangement:





Anyway. The quality of design and manufacture on all components in this set is outstanding throughout, as can be expected on something like this. As far as I can see, the only items missing are the ballistic inserts that once went behind the anti-puncture plates on the base vest (in a "zippered sleeve within a zippered sleeve" type of arrangement). The shoulder inserts on the base vest must have been made out of ballistic materials as well, for they too had been taken out at some point during the surplus process.

The whole ensemble weighs almost 30 lbs and takes up a lot of room (so I will probably refrain from attempting to collect all the 'variants' on this one). When properly topped off with an appropriate helmet, any man wearing this thing would be well-appointed to face an onslaught of sticks and stones at an anarchist rally, or take part in a sword and spear frontal assault on some medieval fortification!


Gene T

[Gordon Craig]

Gene,

To me, there are a couple of good reasons for wearing the suit that comes with the riot gear on top of the armour;
1-your comment about what they would look like with armour on the outside is a very valid one;
2-too many projecting bits and pieces for the rioters to grab onto;
3-the location of the pistol holster. Lokks like you are inviting a rioter to grab the pistol and blaze away!
These are great fotos guys. They really contain a lot of pictures about how the various riot police wear their gear. The one missing piece is the cloth cover that goes over some of the white riot helmets. I've never seen one so I am not sure just exactly what it is or what its purpose is. Anyone know?

Regards,

Gordon

You are no doubt correct about the differences between Germany and the US, Steve and Gordon. Here are some officers from Berlin taking part in the same operation:

http://www.life.com/image/74390622

I also found another source for these suits, with more detailed photos (not as good a price as SGDE, but maybe they'll ship to Canada?): http://www.keepshooting.com/selfdefe...policegear.htm




My impression from looking at the news photos is that the standard practice in Germany is to wear the protective armor on the inside, shielded from view by those more benign looking jackets and trousers (unlike in the vendor display) - I'm guessing that this is so that the riot officers would not have that robocop/ironman-esque aggressive look to them? In nations where police intimidation is considered an asset, this practice would be seen as both wasteful and silly.


Gene T

[Collectinsteve]

Mine is on order, so I'm looking forward to it Thanks for the preview Gene!

Gordon,

I see the covers up on German eBay every so often. Of course they are promoted as GSG-9 because, well... just because! They appear to be gray and not green. At least the ones I've seen so far.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Looking at the pictures that you posted, there seem to be a number of different coloured covers. Green for the old uniforms, blue for the new ones and grey for? Some states seem to wear grey helmets and others white. I have two, for different states, of the white ones. I'll have to search for these covers on ebay.de. What were you looking for when you saw them?

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Gordon,

Yes, there are indeed quite a variety of helmets out there for the period prior to the current issue blue uniforms. White seems to be the dominant color with Niederssachsen being one of the exceptions with blue and Bayern with green.

The helmets appear to come in several basic styles, but different executions. The most common I've seen is a fairly round helmet with ear holes and either no neck flap or only a very small one. The visors come in different styles. The interior is similar to a BW steel helmet with minimal extra padding. Probably dating from the 1960/70s.

Another style is a little more robust than the above. Larger helmet to accommodate more padding, better chin straps, anti-glare filter option for the visor (might have been available earlier!), and less of a round look to it. Probably dating from the 1980s/90s.

A more recent style consists of a less round shaped helmet and lots of padding everywhere. Especially for the neck. That's the type in the pictures below and I believe it is standard issue since the 1990s.

Having said that, these categories are gross simplifications as there are just too many styles to do more than that.

As for the covers... I don't really know how I found them. I usually do time consuming walks through the various German eBay sections each week so I come upon lots of things repeatedly without specifically looking for them.

I'll see what I can turn up.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Thanks for the walk through different police helmet interiors. I havn't paid that much attention to the interior of mine since most of what I have seen are white helmets. I'll have to dig mine out of their box, if I can get to them, and have a look at the interiors.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gene T]

I was curious why a company like Sitek does not seem to have a website. It turns out the company owner was a central figure in the middle of a huge police corruption scandal in 1994 -1995, after which they were no longer allowed to bid for public contracts:

http://www.focus.de/magazin/archiv/p...id_150714.html

Maybe that's why my jacket and trousers are unused, even though they were made a decade and a half ago, and could have cost the German taxpayers a pretty penny or two at the time? If this is how the story ended, then the January 1995 dated vest seen above may have been among the last of its kind ever made to carry the Sitek label.

This is a rather strange twist in the history of these artifacts that I certainly did not expect. It almost makes me want to go and order another set


Gene T