A couple of pictures of the same style belt as the green canvas style belts in wear by the BW.
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belt
The guy on the right has one, also of note, the guy on the left has the BW US pistol belt model and the guy in the center also seems to be wearing some other belt.
And in the background is an officer wearing leather y-straps, somewhere I also have a picture of a soldier in camo uniform with leather Y-straps, it was the cover of some magazine.
Cheers,
MichelComment
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Michel,
Thanks for the great Bundewehr picture. Good shot of the colour of the BW belt. I've also been told that some BW guys coloured the grey belts a greenish colour when they wore them with the camouflage uniforms.
Now if someone can only come up with a BGS guy wearing one of these belts we will be all be much further ahead in our research.
Regards,
GordonComment
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Gordon,
Thanks for the pictures and the text with a date of late 1955. Always good to get a date with pictures.
Well... at this point I'm suspicious that the BGS used the same radio, but not the same belt, as used by the various disaster response forces. I just wish we had more evidence to sift through. I looked through about 100 pictures tonight and only found a few that show the radio. And of those only one showed the belt clearly enough to confirm its type (leather).
Michel,
What a beautiful photo! If the colors can be believed accurate (I think this might be a VERY good hand color) the Hauptmann on the left is wearing the extremely rare WW2 colored jacket. I've seen one in a collector's hands and it certainly does seem a type like this exists.
I also find the leather belt of the Oberstleutnant to be quite interesting. Looks to be the service belt which, I think, started to go into service around the time of this picture (roughly 1959/1960). The Y-Straps are probably BGS. Perhaps this officer was once a BGS officer?
SteveComment
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Michel, a very interesting picture indeed !
I do not think its colorized - the tone reminds me very much of contemporary "technicolor" pictures. Color material was not widespread but used by professional photographers. Together with a big professional made bw-photo collection I aquired some 6x6 cm Bundesmarine pictures in these bright colors (...regretting having them sold already) !! And this photo should also be made by professional hand if it was a magazin cover ... showing the former Bundespräsident Theodor Heuss (elected twice, 1949 - 1959) talking to a general (I ve seen him before ... isn`t it Gen. Heusinger?!? ) on some kind of public (civil BMW motorbike, the boy ...) presentation of the BW.
Beside the already mentioned details its interesting that the OTL left to Heuss seems to wear a new kind of fielduniform ... its not the HBT Arbeitsanzug and not a regular Filzlaus. Even the mounting of his rank insignia is unusual for olive green jackets...
And while the general is already wearing the new four pocket tunic - so the picture dates post 1957 - the Airforce officer behind the mortar still seems to wear a Affenjacke ..... due to the clothing in general and the flora on the ground I would say september 1958 or 1959. Later Heuss wasn`t in his public office anymore and no no one would have displayed the "old" uniforms on a high ranking event any longer ...
JensComment
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Jens,
Looks like Gen. Heusinger to me. I stared at the OTL's uniform for a long time last night. Certainly Filzlaus in design but it appears to be made from a different material and colour. A very interesting photograph!
Regards,
GordonComment
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...maybe its the miraculouse "Kampfanzug Übergang" which is mentioned in some late 50ies publications ...it must have existed before the introduction of the Filzlaus in a certain number, but up to now no one could link it 100% to an existing garment...
JensComment
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ystraps
@collectinsteve
The belt could be a service belt, but the Y-straps have the extra straps for a backpack end ww2 style hooks, my BGS Y-straps don't have the extra straps and have snap hooks, was there also a ww2 model in use?
Also, I found the picture I talked about before, no shot of the belt but he also has leather Y-straps which to me do look like BGS if I could just ssee more of the hook, I also deem it possible that his magazine pouches are BGS.
Cheers,
MichelComment
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I too wondered about the OTL's uniform. If the picture was hand colored this could explain things because hand coloring, even by an expert of experts, is not exact. But now that I think about it, I agree it could be "Kampfanzug Übergang" (though I still think Filzlaus is possible).
If this is Kampfanzug Übergang then this is the first picture I've seen of a jacket. Up until now I've only seen the trousers worn with the winter parka. I have the trousers in my collection and have seen maybe one or two others for sale. Parkas are a little easier to find. But no jackets so far. And I agree the rank on the arms was probably an extension of the system used on the Splittertarn Kampfanzug that was very quickly abandoned.
My guess is this is a 1959 picture towards the end of the year. Kampfanzug Übergang and Filzlaus were both introduced in 1959 so it would be more likely than 1958. They are in a harvested hay field and it appears the Hauptman is wearing a toque or a scarf (either one unlikely if it was warm), yet it is obviously not so cold because some are wearing lighter clothing. It also fits with everything else Jens and Gordon noted.
Michel,
AH! You are very correct about the first set of straps not being BGS. Silly of me to miss that detail! There is a hint of stitching and padding on the shoulder pieces. Maybe Austrian? Perhaps the BW tried something like this when they moved away from the Tarnanzug? 1959 was a very big year of transition for BW uniforms.
I agree that the straps in the second picture you posted do appear to be BGS. Which makes sense for the timeframe and considering how many BW soldiers moved over from the BGS.
SteveComment
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ystraps
Ah I missed the stitching there, I compared the straps to my Austrian straps en every detail I can see seems to be the same.
Nice to have learned yet another thing
Cheers,
MichelComment
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In one of the "olivgrün" magazines are some pics of former BGS-members who all wear their leather equipment with Bundeswehr uniforms. I think that all pics showing former BGS men with leather belt, spades etc
The colour pic is not colourized. There are some other in same colours.
The man on the "Bunte" cover also has the BGS magazine pockets for the FN G1. Clearly BGS.
The pic with the men with the splinter tent sections also are BGS. The Bundeswehr never used the FuG 6, 6b, 7 or 7b. These were civilian BOS funk for fireservice, police, LSHD, THW and BGS. Still in the 90´s the radio systems were divided.
I hope I will find a pic of BGS7police with the FuG 6 and green web belt.
I still haven´t seen a pic of the green web belt in Bw use.Comment
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The man on the "Bunte" cover also has the BGS magazine pockets for the FN G1. Clearly BGS.
Do you mean if he is or was a BGS member. Because to me it seems a bit weird for BGS member to wear complete BW uniform with leather gear, to me it seems more logical for someone that was in the BGS and went to the BW to take his leather gear with him and still wear the rest of the BW uniform, since the BW lacked magazine pouches and Y-straps
Cheers,
MichelComment
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I am quite sure that he is one of the former BGS members who joined the Bw in 1956. There are pics where they also carrying the BGS e-tool.Comment
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Team - This thread just keeps getting better and better.
Michel - What an incredible photograph; what discoveries!
Seen below is the cover of a book on West German Re-armament called Germans to the Front by David Clay Large.
Although difficult to make out, the soldiers here are wearing a U.S. M-1936 style belt and are armed with the Kar 98k.
The M-1936 belt on display at the Muenster Museum was tan and the first aid snap button had the typical pebbled style finish you'd expect from German manufactured gear. The finish on the buckles and adjuster was a burnished, black-painted bronze.
It would appear as though the soldiers seen on Clay's book are wearing the same green style one as the soldier in Michel's picture. The fittings are very shiny, unlike the Muenster artifact. Can this lead us to believe that there were at least two variations of the M-1936 style belt in use?
Large's book by the way is a very good read, but it stays at the top level, rarely supplying the uniform details so eagerly sought after by this crowd.
All the best - TJComment
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Okay, folks. Next miracle...
You see German Bundeswehr soldiers with 11th ABD patches and white US leggins. Maybe Bw soldiers currently attached to the 11th ABD for training??
They are wearing German rang stripes.
I have no idea...
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