Jacket questions

[LuckyLuudje]

I am a complete novice with Bundeswehr uniforms, but once in a while I get one.
And I have to admit that I like them, but I have a few questions.

But today I recieved a uniform wich I haven't seen before.
It misses a few pockets that I am used to see. Is that normal?
There is no shoulderpatch on it, and don't see any traces that there has been such a patch before, why could that be?

If someone has any idea when it was made, please let me know.
I can only make an estimate on the sewn ribbon bar and I think it is made in the early sixties, could that be correct?

I will show a few pictures to illustrate what I mean.
This is the Jacket in question, the only marks I found were in the inside pocket.
It is marked KKB and guess that the other marks have something to do with the size.

[LuckyLuudje]

The Jacket is almost similar in colour as an other JAcket that I have, but the material is completely different.

[LuckyLuudje]

Although other material have been used, the other Jacket does have the same KKB stamp in it's pocket.

[LuckyLuudje]

The colour is however much lighter than another Jacket.
But like the 2nd Jacket, it does have 2 extra pockets and the shoulder patch.

All information is appreciated.

[Asbjoern]

Luud, congratulation to your new uniform ... its a nice and well preserved Gesellschaftsanzug jacket. All is correct with it ... due to the "missing" pockets its sometimes also called "Zweitschenrock" (Two pocket tunic). And its also o.k. that it is in a lighter shade of grey.
This type of jacket was invented in 1963 as there was demand for a more ceremonial kind of uniform for official use ... it was replaced by the black dinner jacket dress in 1973.

Regards,

Jens

[LuckyLuudje]

Hi Jens, Thanks for the information.
Now it makes more sence to me and I learned something again.

[uscob]

Luud, congratulation to your new uniform ... its a nice and well preserved Gesellschaftsanzug jacket. All is correct with it ... due to the "missing" pockets its sometimes also called "Zweitschenrock" (Two pocket tunic). And its also o.k. that it is in a lighter shade of grey.
This type of jacket was invented in 1963 as there was demand for a more ceremonial kind of uniform for official use ... it was replaced by the black dinner jacket dress in 1973.

Regards,

Jens

Jens, be carefull when you're cleaning up, somewhere you lost an "a".
It must be "Zweitaschenrock". Just to get it right for the others.

[Asbjoern]

So mine was not only missing two pockets, also an "a" ...

Jens

[Collectinsteve]

A great haul of stuff!! In addition to what Jens says, you have:

1. Shoulder rank for pre 1963 uniform. Probably for a "top coat" (Mantel).

2. You have some extremely nice ribbonbars on those uniforms. Those are worth quite a lot of money on their own.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

LuckyLuudje,

As Steve has said, you have some nice tunics and ribbon bars in your photos.
As for the Gesellschafanzug having no arm badge, the armbadges for the BW were not authorized for wear until 27 November 1962. Since the design of each badge had to be approved before it could be worn they probably did not appear on tunics until some time in 1963. Therefore, your tunic without an arm badge; no sign of one ever being worn; and with pre 1963 rank insignia, would be correct as it is.

Regards,

Gordon

[LuckyLuudje]

Thanks guys, very interesting information that is much appreciated

it is probably a stupid question, but why is the shoulder insignia pre 63?

I am not really into BW uniforms, but they came with the bars or other 57's and I do not want to seperate them.
I noticed that I already have 7 BW and BM uniforms......and I have to admit that I do like them

To bad the wearer is not know, so it will be hard to find the wearer.
There is some more stuff, buy nothing contains usefull information.
The only information that I have more is that his brother was a DKig winner and wore a observer badge and later a P/O.

I will show you guys the bar, if anyone has an idea about the possible recipient, please let me know.
Except the Kurland Cuff and Finnish cross of liberty all are pretty standard awards for an RK winner.

I hope I didn't forget an "a" somewhere

[Asbjoern]

Very nice in deed ... especially as the ribbon is sewn on. So its better to judge as the pinned one on my generals uniform.

As Gordon states the unit emblem is introduced in 1963. The two pocket tunic of the Gesellschaftsanzug also ... so this example must be one of those only used for a very limited time as it shows no trace of such a patch...

Regards,

Jens

[Gordon Craig]

LuckyLuudje,

Hard to figure out who this Knights Cross owner would be. It is the bane of our existance that BW uniforms were not named to the wearer. If he were a General we might have a chance but at this rank it would take a lot of digging with slim chance of success. However, if I can find the time between my Moderator duties, I'll give it a shot.

Regards,

Gordon

[LuckyLuudje]

Thanks Gordon,
But don't put too much effert in searching.
I already checked the book of the RKT of the BW.
There is not much information about the RKT's in that book, but could eleminate the names to around 10 because the lack of a DKig, rang of obert in the early sixties and the CCC in bronze.

But I only need to find a good source (if it exists) for the RKT's in the BW where all the awards are documented.
The best would be finding period pictures with the exact same bar.

I have in total 5 different RK bars wich I haven't able to identify yet.
If you recognize any of them or see pictures with one of these bars, please let me know.

[Gordon Craig]

Luud,

Will do. There is no source, that I am aware of, where all of the awards won by RKT BW men in WWII is recorded. We would all like to have one of those.

Regards,

Gordon