Oberstleutnant Panzer Uniform

[speedytop]

Hi Steve,

it must be my absolute bad and insufficient English, but I read:

This could have belonged to "Oberst Schmahl (Kdr. des Panzer-Regiments 33)" for a variety of practical reasons.

And my different translators show me, that this means, that the former Oberst Schmahl could be the wearer of this LTC jacket
Or do you split between the wearer and the owner?

Do you know if the use of loops for the pin was common?

Not commmon, but you can find it. In my collection is a jacket of a Brigadegeneral with the loops for his Leistungsabzeichen in Gold.

... and I don't think the average officer would wear an old style uniform for a very long time.

I don't think it, I know it.
Several old Wehrmacht officers liked the "French cuffs"! They don't want to loose the cuffs!

they are breaking uniform rules

No, it was explicit allowed, to wear the old uniform longer. I never heard about a time limit.

Uwe

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Uwe,

And my different translators show me, that this means, that the former Oberst Schmahl could be the wearer of this LTC jacket
Or do you split between the wearer and the owner?

I suppose the owner could have been Oberst Schmahl, but I do not think it could be a jacket he wore serving the Bundeswehr. As I described, he would have been much older than retirement age at this point. Somewhere around 70-80 years old, depending on his date of birth. Then there is the problem with the lower rank and missing DKIG.

What we really need is the date of this uniform. The only reason I am dating it 1971+ is because of the loops on the left breast pocket. If these did not exist the jacket could be as old as 1963. There is still the problem of the lower rank and missing DKIG, and his age would still likely be too old because he was probably born before 1900. What was retirement age in the BW during the 1960s?

In any case, it is not my jacket so I only "care" because it is fun to try and put pieces together. If it were my jacket I would not believe it to be worn by Ludwig Schmahl in service of the Bundeswehr.

Not commmon, but you can find it. In my collection is a jacket of a Brigadegeneral with the loops for his Leistungsabzeichen in Gold.

I think I would like to see more of your collection

I don't think it, I know it.
Several old Wehrmacht officers liked the "French cuffs"! They don't want to loose the cuffs!
...
No, it was explicit allowed, to wear the old uniform longer. I never heard about a time limit.

Ah, very interesting. Usually when a new uniform is introduced there is an official period of transition, then after this period everybody has to wear the new uniform. Of course there are exceptions and poorer nations don't behave this way. Sometimes the rules are not enforced.

This is a good discussion!

Steve

[HouweTrouwe]

I am trying to get more from the family (better said from the person between me and the fam.) and information. Therefor I will wait before I make a structured and (as much as possible) correct answer. But I cannot wait to comment on some of the replies made.

The least important thing but still need a correction: (1) I didn't buy it from a dealer but from a person between me and the family. It was offered on ebay but now I am arranging everything in private.

Note: He has ca. 110 more photographs for me (besides wartime photos) from him (L. Schmahl) and his family (!) from after the war (which can be very interesting).

(2) He wasn't waiting nor he was (to me knowlegde) accomendated for the promotion to the rank of Generalmajor! In the book it said he hoped for a promotion to the rank of Generalmajor (like it was his dream). Second of all: if he was accomendated and therefor waiting for his promotion I would like to see a proper wartime document that does confirm this.

(3) Where does his birthyear come from?! Speedy said that he was a WWI officer and that he was old and people directly follow him. I even don't have a birthyear. Where does it come from that he was a WWI officer and born before 1900? I can provide some more photograhps of him and he doesn't look old but young. He doesn't have WWI awards or anything.

(4) I'm trying to get more information on his Deutsches Kreuz in Gold. It is a strange situation. As (a) there is another Ludwig Schmahl, (b) family nor my contact person doesn't know anything a DKiG, (c) there are no photographs of him wearin the DKiG to this date. I will try to find out more.

[speedytop]

Hi,

studying my old books, I found some answers.

Retirement

In the fifties:
Hauptmann 50
Major 52
Oberstleutnant 54
Oberst 56

In the sixties:
Hauptmann 52
Major 54
Oberstleutnant 56
Oberst 58

Rank system for former soldiers of the Wehrmacht

1955 regulations (as a rule):
Leutnant as Oberleutnant
Oberleutnant (older than 32 years) as Hauptmann
Hauptmann and above with the same rank as before

1956 regulations:
"Die Einberufung erfolgt mindestens in dem Dienstgrad, den der Bewerber am 8.5.1945 als Soldat erreicht hatte."

"At least the same rank"

Uwe

[HouweTrouwe]

What are the situations why someone would be degrated or didn't recieve his former wartime rank?

Four photographs of Schmahl. Both left are from after the war. The ones on the right are from during the war. R1 near 1940-41 I suppose as Oberfeldwebel. R2 as Leutnant.

[HouweTrouwe]

Close-up (zoomed in) on photograph L2 from previous post. See his rank.

[Collectinsteve]

(3) Where does his birthyear come from?! Speedy said that he was a WWI officer and that he was old and people directly follow him. I even don't have a birthyear. Where does it come from that he was a WWI officer and born before 1900? I can provide some more photograhps of him and he doesn't look old but young. He doesn't have WWI awards or anything.

Simple extrapolation, as I stated earlier. Even if we assume he became a Leutnant (the lowest officer rank) on the last day of WW1, and he received his commission at the extremely young age of 18, then he would have been born in 1900. I do not see how it is possible for him to have been born later than 1900, but in all likelihood he was born earlier. Probably at least 1895, which would have made him 23 at the end of WW1.

Even if you take the most recent date possible (1900) this would make him 55 at the time the Bundeswehr was recreated, 63 at the time the style of uniform you have was introduced, and 71 by the time the award for the left breast pocket was issued. All three of these ages are beyond the retirement ages that Uwe has specified (thanks Uwe!).

Add another 5 years to this, with a probable birthdate of 1895 or so, and it gets even worse.

This alone makes it pretty much impossible for the uniform to be of Ludwig Schmahl, former Oberst and regimental commander in the Wehrmacht.

But then there are multiple other problems as I've noted.

Again, can you please provide information on the uniform's labels? I've asked several times now for this critical piece of information and have not seen a response from you. We are trying to help.

(4) I'm trying to get more information on his Deutsches Kreuz in Gold. It is a strange situation. As (a) there is another Ludwig Schmahl, (b) family nor my contact person doesn't know anything a DKiG, (c) there are no photographs of him wearin the DKiG to this date. I will try to find out more.[/FONT]

I think the logical conclusion is you have contact with the family of another Ludwig Schmahl. The pictures confirm this, I think, in two ways:

1. He is clearly wearing NCO rank in one picture, yet the Oberst was an officer already in WW1! So it is not possible for him to have been a NCO in the Third Reich.

2. There is no way those wartime pictures are of a soldier in his 50s, which is what an Oberst who served in WW1 would probably be.

Based on the evidence and simple facts which we have in front of us, I think it is 100% certain that you are negotiating for the collection of someone other than Ludwig Schmahl, former Oberst and regimental commander of the Wehrmacht in WW2.

Which, of course, doesn't make the collection you are seeking any less interesting! As we jaded Bundeswehr collectors have noted several times... that tunic you have pictures of is a real gem. Combined with documentation and other artifacts of his service, you've got a really nice collection at your fingertips.

Steve

[HouweTrouwe]

Steve, let us not assume with the age. Assuming can go the right way but also the incorrect way. I am not saying he can't be that old but pre 1900 ?

The uniform doesn't have stamps so far I can see nor any tailormarkers etc.

Second of all (!) I don't buy everything without proper investigation and certainly not when it is my interest area.

(1) PLEASE PROVIDE SOURCES mentioning Schmahl was a Officer in World War I ?! One said he was officer in WWI but without source stated and never given.

(2) Again you base your answer on two unproven facts. That he was an Officer in World War I and how old he had to be.

(3) Please see the sentence above (1). Look to upcoming attachments... Everything I currently bought and will buy [if not it is mentioned] belongs to the Nachlass of Schmahl which is bought straight from family of Ludwig Schmahl.

[HouweTrouwe]

Sorry that it sometimes are parts of photographs or documents but I wasn't planning to publish most of it..

This piece of document is from a hunting plan. With three officers: Oberst Schmahl, Major Schneider and Obltnt. von Kindermann. There are other names aswell but I will only take these.

I pasted two other pictures on the wall. These are signatures of two above mentioned officers. The pic. with nr.2 on it is from Oberleutnant von Kindermann who replaced Schmahl for a small period as Regimentskommandeur and nr.3 is the signature of Oberst Ludwig Schmahl himself.

[HouweTrouwe]

Another document out the Nachlass which refers to our Oberst Schmahl. Note the "Prinz Eugen", the document also has a beautiful penciled Prinz Eugen next to his horse with under it a little tank but the whole paged is very nice drawn!

[HouweTrouwe]

Another document out of the nachlass (personal belongings). A document for "Morgenfeier". Note written "Kriwoj Rog 23.I.44" etcetera... Kriwoi Rog (Kryvyi Rih) is the place where in January 1944, the Panzer-Regiment 33 "Prinz Eugen" was stationed and again reunited with its former abteilung (Panzer-Abteilung 51). Kriwoi Rog felled in the hands of the 9. Panzerdivision, the division (incl. the Panzer-Regiment) lost lives here.

[HouweTrouwe]

Everything I posted now including the uniform (with the exception of the signatures in the wallphoto) is from the Nachlass (personal belongings) of Ludwig Schmahl, former Rgt.Kdr. of Pz.Rgt. 33. More is to come in my possession of the Nachlass.

[Collectinsteve]

The mystery deepens

Steve, let us not assume with the age. Assuming can go the right way but also the incorrect way. I am not saying he can't be that old but pre 1900 ?

If he was an officer during WWI then yes, pre 1900 is absolutely probable. If he served in WWI at all, even as a Privat, then his birthdate is likely 1902 at the very latest. That would make him 16 during the last year of the war.

Now, if he did not serve in WWI at all, the age speculation is completely wrong. Of course. The information about WWI is based on what Uwe wrote and the lack of information to the contrary. I do not know what Uwe's sources are so he will have to answer that.

The uniform doesn't have stamps so far I can see nor any tailormarkers etc.

Not surprising. The quality of the uniform appears to make it a private purchase uniform. Such uniforms tend not to have much, if any, tags in them.

Second of all (!) I don't buy everything without proper investigation and certainly not when it is my interest area.

A good philosophy The problem we have been having so far is the information you presented has been in little pieces and none of it makes sense. Still doesn't

(1) PLEASE PROVIDE SOURCES mentioning Schmahl was a Officer in World War I ?! One said he was officer in WWI but without source stated and never given.

Uwe presented this information, as well as DKIG award. I don't know what his sources are.

(2) Again you base your answer on two unproven facts. That he was an Officer in World War I and how old he had to be.

See above. But there are still other questions about this uniform beyond age of Schmahl.

(3) Please see the sentence above (1). Look to upcoming attachments... Everything I currently bought and will buy [if not it is mentioned] belongs to the Nachlass of Schmahl which is bought straight from family of Ludwig Schmahl.

Very good authority here, for sure. Again, my conclusions are made on the information as presented. If the "facts" change, then obviously conclusions must be reassessed. But there are several questions:

1. Uwe's information. Where did it come from and how could it be so different than the facts you presented?

2. What the loops are on the left breast pocket because I don't think it could be for the Leistungsabzeichen. Even if he was 30 in 1945 he would have been beyond retirement age in 1971 when the Leistungsabzeichen was first issued.

3. Why was he demoted to Oberstleutnant when entering the BW? Why did he not get a single promotion during his career in the BW? He must have been in for at least 8 years or more, which should have been enough time to be promoted to Oberst.

These are more questions of interest, especially about the loops on the left breast pocket.

Steve

[speedytop]

Hi HouweTrouwe,

once more, what a career! Based on the documents and uniforms from his posession!

Career data, maximum ratings:
1940 Hauptfeldwebel (see Post 35, picture top right: "Panzerkampfabzeichen in Silber", instituted in December 1939)
1943 Oberst (my first link and an invitation in December 1943 to Oberst Schmahl)
1962 Major (Post 36: new rounded shoulder boards, worn since 1962)
1971 Oberstleutnant (the uniform in the first Posts: loops for a Leistungsabzeichen, first issued in 1971; it is the same problem with Oberstleutnant in 1962/1963!)

And once more my serious question: could some of these documents and uniforms belong to a relative from Oberst Ludwig Schmahl?

In the book from Franz Kurowski, Verleugnete Vaterschaft (Knight Cross holders in the Bundeswehr), I found only three officers, that had been rehired with a lower rank, but only for a few months, in the probationary period.
More than three officers had been rehired with a higher rank.


Post 39

Oberleutnant von Kindermann who replaced Schmahl for a small period as Regimentskommandeur

No, his signature is with "i.V.", that is "as representative of". And it is not as representative of the commander, it is as representative of the second in command (Mit der Führung des Regiments beauftragt).


Steve:

I do not know what Uwe's sources are so he will have to answer that.

See my link in Post 13. It could be another Oberst Schmahl, but it is an Oberst Schmahl from a "Panzerregiment": "Dazu hatte mir Oberst Schmahl Auszüge aus den Regimentsberichten mitgegeben.", that is in connection with a "Kampfgruppe Burmeister".

Uwe presented this information, as well as DKIG award. I don't know what his sources are.

See my links in Post 10 and 13.


Uwe

[Collectinsteve]

Thank you Uwe for your answers!

I agree... the progression of ranks makes no sense. Hauptfeldwebel to Oberst in just 3 years? I know some German officers were put on the "fast track", but this is still hard to believe.

I think there must be some confusion still between two men with the same name. The career paths just don't match up with empirical facts (ages, rank progression).

Steve