Oberstleutnant Panzer Uniform

[HouweTrouwe]

Uniform that I recently acquired (including some other material - and hopefully more to come). The uniform belonged to Oberst Schmahl (Kdr. des Panzer-Regiments 33). The strange part is that his rank on his Bundeswehr uniform is Oberstleutnant. (1) Was this a (normal) procedure? (2) Besides this question, for what does the patch on the left arm stand for?

There was one loop on the uniform for an award. (3) Probably for a BW award? [I hang a Silver PAB on the uniform currently] As most of his wartime awards are on his uniform as a ribbon.

I'd would like to share it with you and hope you like it. All information and comments are welcome and appreciated.

[HouweTrouwe]

A real (beautiful) soldier's ribbonbar.

[HouweTrouwe]

One of the collartabs.

[HouweTrouwe]

One of the shoulderboards.

[HouweTrouwe]

The shoulderpatch. German "Adler" (I actually don't dare to call it such) with under it a Roman II. I tried to catch some nice photographs which I think came out nice. You'll see that the pink doesn't come out that much as does in reality. Pleas share all your information or comments. I'd much appreciate it.

[Gordon Craig]

HouweTrouwe,

Welcome to the BRD Forum. We look forward to more pictures of your BW tunics. It would appear that you are referring to Schmahl's wartime rank and command. Ex Wehrmacht officers did not always enter the BW with their wartime rank. It would appear that Schmahl re-enlisted in the Bundewehr at a lower rank than he held in the Wehrmacht. At least as indicated on this tunic.
The verbandabzeichen on the left arm of the tunic indicates the unit or organization the soldier is serving in. This badge was worn in the Wehrbereichskommando II in Hnnover.
You can find out more about Wehrbereichskommando II here http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrbereichskommando

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

A beautiful tunic!! Hopefully you have the other items to match. The trousers are especially difficult to find.

I don't have much to add to Gordon's comments except to say the only badge I'm aware of being authorized for wear on the left breast pocket is the Leistungsabzeichen. This was first issued in 1971, which is a little later than this type of tunic. What is the date of the tunic (inside left breast pocket)?

Steve

[Guardian 5]

HouweTrouwe - What a beauty! Have you shown it on the WAF 1957er Forum?

Those guys would love to see it too. Thanks for sharing with us.

All the best - TJ

[HouweTrouwe]

All three, many thanks for the answers and comments! I'd really appreciate it. Gordon, I checked your link and indeed I saw the exact patch for Wehrbereichskommando II and also for the reply on my BW rank question. Two problems solved. Thanks.

Steve, do you have an example of that Leistungsabzeichen? I will check the date later on this evening, if there is anything. Thanks.

Thomas, no I didn't and maybe I will as you could be right. No problem. Thanks.

[speedytop]

Hi HouweTrouwe,

I have my problems with the uniform in combination with "Oberst Schmahl (Kdr. des Panzer-Regiments 33)".

Oberst Ludwig Schmahl was an old officer, he served as an officer in WW I.
In 1944/1945 he waits for the promotion to the rank Generalmajor.

He had the "Deutsches Kreuz in Gold", awarded on August 10th, 1943.

http://www.ww2awards.com/person/17626

In the first time of the Bundeswehr it was usual, to enter the army in the same rank as before, or in a higher rank.

A "Leistungsabzeichen" (instituted in 1971) in the age of 70?

Because I don't understand it, could it be his son?

Uwe

[HouweTrouwe]

Hi HouweTrouwe,

I have my problems with the uniform in combination with "Oberst Schmahl (Kdr. des Panzer-Regiments 33)".

Oberst Ludwig Schmahl was an old officer, he served as an officer in WW I.
In 1944/1945 he waits for the promotion to the rank Generalmajor.

He had the "Deutsches Kreuz in Gold", awarded on August 10th, 1943.

http://www.ww2awards.com/person/17626

In the first time of the Bundeswehr it was usual, to enter the army in the same rank as before, or in a higher rank.

A "Leistungsabzeichen" (instituted in 1971) in the age of 70?

Because I don't understand it, could it be his son?

Uwe

How do you know that he was an officer from WWI or that he was awaiting promotion to Generalmajor? As far as I know (I don't have his birth date) he wasn't that old. On the provided photograph (See attachment) you'll see him normally again but during the time in the Bundeswehr. It looks like he only has one pip and one wing (? - Sorry I don't know how they name it) on his shoulderboard. Probably later on promoted (as seen on the uniform) and got one pip more. I cannot provide a date to the photograph.

Didn't they had to provide evidence to their wartime rank and awards? As far I know I also know cases where witnesses and fellow comrades had to testify that he (ref. to a soldier) actually wore and earned it.

[Asbjoern]

I think there are two different men with the same name ... the picture must be taken after 1962 as the coat has rounded shouldeboards which where invented late in 1962. The Major (one pip with oakleaves) on the picture does not look as if he could have served in WWI in officers rank - this guy is not born before 1900. And he would have retired before his 62 birthday in the rank of a major ... instead the man was promoted to the rank of an Oberstleutnant...

Regards,

Jens

P.S.: Yes, a real nice tunic ! Especially as it is named ...

[speedytop]

Hi HouweTrouwe,

where is the "Deutsches Kreuz in Gold" on his ribbon bar?

A former Colonel rehired as Major? Impossible for me!
In my collection are documents from a former Major, who was promoted to Oberstleutnant (LTC) when he joined the Bundeswehr in December 1955.

For his age, please see page 68, last paragraph:

http://books.google.de/books?id=OJHM...ahl%22&f=false

For his possible promotion please see page 75, penultimate paragraph, and page 77, penultimate paragraph.

Uwe

[Collectinsteve]

I have to agree about the rank problem. The examples I've seen officers often were accepted into the BW at a higher rank than when they left the Wehrmacht. I think one of the reasons is 10 years passed between WH and BW. If the BW had existed right after WW2 they would likely have received one promotion, which in turn determines rate of pay and pension. But of course they were not allowed to hold rank for 10 years and therefore were artificially denied a large part of their career. Plus, the pool of higher ranks was automatically lower because of retirement age and lack of interest to rejoin. So they needed to have someone to fill those ranks, regardless. I'm not sure if the same "bump up" was extended to NCOs.

So I agree it would be very uncommon for an officer to enter the service of the BW with a demotion. On top of that, the picture and uniform are from the mid to possibly late 1960s. If this officer reentered the BW in the 1950s (the logical time) this means for 10 years he had no promotions while in service! Either that or he entered as a Hauptman, which would have been two ranks lower than his wartime rank.

No, I think it is highly unlikely that the BW Oberstleutnant uniform was worn by an Oberst of the WH.

As for the badge on the left breast, I'm still puzzled by this. In 1970 the uniform changed style from the one pictured to a more simplified uniform. The "Sports badge" (Leistungsabzeichen) was issued starting in 1971. I don't know what to make of that unless the pictured uniform is a private purchase jacket?

Is there a label on the inside left breast pocket? If so, there almost always is a date. If there is no label, is there some signs of one? If not, are there other labels? Finding out the date of this jacket is very important.

And no matter who wore it, this is a beautiful jacket!

Steve

[Asbjoern]

Steve, depending on the overall appearance, the private purchased Verbandsabzeichen and the fact, that more then 90% of all officers tunics from this periode are custom made I say it´s also a privat jacket. To be true I never saw a issued jacket with insignia of this rank ! Even my Leuntant jackets are not issued ones ...

So we are caught between late in 1962 and 1969 when the french cuffs disappeard suddenly. Maybe they could be worn longer but there are no such tunics made after this year (and for sure no "new stile" tunics made before 1970) and also no high ranking officer would have bought a new private made tunic in old stile. Don`t forget that they even modernized their dress tunics some years before by changing the shoulderboards...

Also the award loops are a little miracle ... the Leistungsabzeichen was - as Steve allready stated - invented after the tunic design changed. So no need to have loops on an old stile jacket. Also the pin of this award is designed to be pulled through the fabric... Maybe he wore one of his 1957er awards in full size ? Waht would have been worn on the breast pocket beside the EK 1 ?? And was it possible to wear it on a ribbon bar and in full size at the same time ? I don`t think so but as this is not my main field of interest there may be a expalanation ....

Regards,

Jens