Jacket identification request!

[Collectinsteve]

Hi all,

Today I received this very nice summer jacket that had no date. I don't think I've seen this type before. It's constructed similar to a 1960s Sandfarbe jacket, and of similar material, but it doesn't appear to be a Sandfarbe jaket dyed gray. It has a very interesting feature which is related to the shoulder straps. I'll explain that in a sec. Here's the overview picture:



The rank is the 1950s pointed type, made from the same material as the jacket:



The very interesting feature is the reinforced "pass through" gap between the top seam between arm and shoulder. The bottom of the rank goes into this gap and a flexible metal strap is slipped through to prevent it from sliding out:



Does anybody know what this is for sure? There is no date on the label. My only guess is the "Truppenversuch für leichte Sommerbekleidung" shown on page 40 of Kunstwadl's book.

Steve

[Asbjoern]

Steve, basically its a "normal" four pocket dress tunic conforming to the regulations between 1958 and 1962. The light construction and the other features plus the missing of a label lead me to the opinion, that it must be a privatly purchased summer tunic as it is mentioned in KKB catalogues around 1960. Up to now I only saw a Luftwaffe version of it, but this had also no lining and the ventilation openings under the arms ...depending on the guy who now owns this LW jacket these are very hard to find as it was seldom purchased.

Jens

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Jens,

OK, that makes sense to me! I have an early 1960s private purchase LW jacket, which is pictured here on this Forum somewhere. Even lighter construction than this Heer jacket! Funny... these two private purchase jackets have the worst body oder in their armpits of any BRD jacket I own

Steve

[Gene T]

I wish there was a section in the conservation forum on how to remove BO from leather and woolen uniforms. I've tried dry cleaning, Fabreze, Lysol, charcoal briquettes, etc. Nothing worked on the afflicted garments! It's as though the previous owners had transferred their apocrine gland DNA directly to the fabric, which is now able to feed a colony of odor emitting bacteria all by itself, ad perpetuum, and nothing short of an acid bath would resolve the problem.


Gene T

[hoover]

Very nice jacket. Never seen that type before.

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Nice to see a Heer tunic in this model. I have a Luftwaffe one and they seem to be the more common ones.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Gene,

nothing short of an acid bath would resolve the problem.

Hehe... I bet it would, though the end result might be suboptimal Actually, I think if I tried this with my lightweight LW jacket the remaining metal bits would probably still smell

Thanks for the compliments guys! I'm very happy with it. The eBay picture was not very good and so I thought I was getting a standard wool tunic. Imagine my surprise when it arrived (apart from the part related to the bad body oder!).

I have another two mystery jackets that I'm curious about. I'll post pictures sometime soon into this thread. Hopefully someone will know what they are.

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

Here are two more interesting jackets in my collection.

The first is dated 1964. It is lightweight, which makes sense if you're playing a tuba in the middle of a large patch of asphalt in July I've not completed restoring the rank on the right epaulette.

Any ideas what the best unit badge should be for the left arm?




The second is not dated, but I think it is very recent (2000s). It is nearly identical to the Wachbatallion jackets that some of us here have. It is made of a very high quality wool material and has button on epaulettes.







This jacket came to me "as is" without a unit badge. I am wondering if the badge below is a good choice for a replacement.



Thanks!!

Steve

[Asbjoern]

Steve, nice musician tunic ! A very hard to get branch ... never saw any uniform from these guys for sale ... . Are you sure that the metal gear was mounted on these boards ? At the moment I´m not sure about the date when the EM insignia moved from the upper arm to the boards ... but was it already before the french cuffs came out of stile ?

I would date the pioneer tunic to the late 60ies ! Already back then they used these labels - one or two of my KKB tunics have just the same. As it is a private purchased piece the "special" Verbandsabzeichen would make sence ....

Jens

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Jens,

There were holes in the shoulder boards matching Obergefreiter UA metal rank. I was able to put these replacements into the existing holes. I am inclined to believe this is what was originally on the uniform.

Your point about the date when the rank moved from arm to shoulder is a good one. I took a quick look through Kunstwadl and did not find a specific date, but there was a picture from 1964 with rank still on the arm. My guess has always been mid-1960s.

Since this was a private purchase the uniform might have been on a shelf for many years before it was purchased. This happens even today. A friend of mine bought a brand new US Navy uniform for me a few months ago and it was dated 2007, even though the uniforms have only been standard issue for a year or two. So we must keep in mind that production date does not necessarily equal issue date.

About the second tunic. I will try to compare it with my Wachbatallion jacket soon. I know that jacket was made very recently. I suppose the specifications for this jacket might have remained the same since the 1960s.

Steve

[speedytop]

Steve,

About the second tunic. ... I know that jacket was made very recently.

A jacket in the year 2000 with french cuffs?

... when the rank moved from arm to shoulder ... My guess has always been mid-1960s

Hormann say/write March 1974, and I believe, that it is correct!

See Kunstwadl, page 116:
"Mannschaftsdienstgrade:
(in dieser Form mit erhabenen Metallbalken erst ab den 70er Jahren getragen)"

"worn since the seventies"

Uwe

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Uwe,

A jacket in the year 2000 with french cuffs?

Ack! My mistake. I was not specific enough. I meant the Wachbatallion jacket (I checked, 1999 is the date) has nearly identical wool and removable shoulder rank, just like the Pioneer jacket. No French cuffs on the Wachbattalion jacket.

OK, so for sure my Pioneer jacket is from the 1960s. Do you have an opinion about the Heersunterstützungskommando Abzeichen? Would a Pioneer officer from the late 1960s belong to this command? Is the badge of the same type worn during those years?

Hormann say/write March 1974, and I believe, that it is correct!

Wow... that is much, much later than I thought. One reason is I have never seen rank on the arms of 1970+ Dienstanzug or Feldanzug. I am not saying Hormann is wrong, it's just surprising to me.

OK, then it looks like some collector put this rank on the 1964 jacket and not a soldier.

Steve

[speedytop]

Steve,

Heersunterstützungskommando ... Would a Pioneer officer from the late 1960s belong to this command?

No. please see here, 1995 - 2003:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heeresu...tzungskommando

I am not saying Hormann is wrong, it's just surprising to me.

Then both must be wrong, Hormann and Kunstwadl? Kunstwadl = "since the seventies"!
And all the different Bw books must be wrong!

Uwe

[Collectinsteve]

No. please see here, 1995 - 2003:

Bah! Now I have to find another badge. OK, thanks for keeping me away from a wrong choice

Then both must be wrong, Hormann and Kunstwadl? Kunstwadl = "since the seventies"!
And all the different Bw books must be wrong!

heh... I said they weren't wrong... I said I'm surprised I've always thought the change was much earlier.

OK, I will remove the metal from the Musicians jacket and try to smooth out the holes. I will then put some nice arm rank on it to make up for this I will also make sure to choose a divisional unit badge of a unit active in middle 1960s.

Thanks for the help!

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

An easy badge to look for for your engineers tunic would be one of the panzer divisions. For example, Panzer Division 1 was formed in 1956 and is still in existance today. Panzer Brigade 21, of this division, had Armoured Engineer Company 200 as part of its compliment. Since the Panzer divisions were numbered in order as they were created it is fairly easy to track them for your time period. Most of them disappeared in the restructuring of 1993.

Regards,

Gordon