OK, so what's this thing?

[Collectinsteve]

I received this as part of a "Konvolut" of BW items. Any idea what this is and if it is even German? I'm thinking it isn't, but the 9/60 date is a period of equipment that I don't know a lot about. I do know there was heavy US Army influence, which can be seen in this piece with the Khaki color and spring clips. The strap, however, looks pretty typical BW in its metal features.

Any ideas?

Steve

[Klaus1989]

It looks like a map case. Similar, but not identical to WW2 American version. I would guess, French or maybe Belgian? I dont think Bundeswehr used khaki web equipment and they had their own leather map case.

regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

Thanks Klaus,

Like you my first guess after getting this thing in hand is that it's French, not German. The ink stamp isn't exactly like anything i've seen before, but there's something about the font and the black box edging that makes me think French.

The problem I have is very incomplete knowledge of 1950s equipment. Many nations, France and German included, used a lot of American things either as surplus or made on their own in American style. Therefore I try to avoid making assumptions about items that might be from this period if I'm even a little unsure.

Having said that, the 1960 date seems a little late for the BW as they "outgrew" most of their American gear by this time, much like Austria (coincidentally both retain the helmets). France, on the other hand, stuck with the American influence for awhile longer here and there (the basic equipment load was distinctly French).

I'm satisfied with your opinion as my "second opinion", so into the French pile this one goes unless someone presents evidence to the contrary

Steve

[uscob]

It's 100% Bundeswehr.
MSL might be Marquartdt & Schulz.
I would say It's a Document Case for some Heavy Equipment.

[Collectinsteve]

heh... and now the plot thickens

Why do you think it is 100% BW? I agree there are a couple of features that are very similar to BW stuff, but there are several features which are not. I also was unaware of the BW using Khaki US style equipment in 1960. Although, as I said, I don't really know enough to say either way.

I have taken it out of the French pile and now have it in the Unresolved pile. Since these piles are in my head and not in actual boxes, the change is quite easy to make

Steve

[Hugh Zillmann old]

Hi,

When did the NATO code numbers come into use?

'12 - 124 - 8902'.

Is not '12' the NATO code for West Germany (as it then was)?

Regards,

Hugh

[Collectinsteve]

Hugh,

Good suggestion! Yes, it does look to be a legitimate NIIN with Germany as the country. Here's a simple to read description of NIN:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ication_Number

Those familiar with US codes will note that the NSN uses the same format but with a 4 number group as a prefix.

Since the FSN, which NSN replaced, was in use from 1949 until 1975. Since the NIIN is a subset of FSN I think it's safe to say that NATO was using this system since the start.

Steve

[Asbjoern]

Yes, the "12" NSN is a strong indication for BW origin...also the stile of the stamp. The widespread use of the NSN stamped to BW stuff begann in 1959 - at the moment I don`t know many (any?) items stamped with a date 1955-`58 and NSN but many withe dates `59 and later...

Jens

P.S. : This pouch was also unknown to me before it was posted here...maybe its a short living variation of the mapcase...

[Collectinsteve]

The odd thing about this, to me, is the 1960 date. The BW, BGS, and Polizei seemed consistently happy to continue using the traditional style map case well into the 1970s and perhaps 1980s. This case is a pretty radical departure. Which leads me to theorize one of two things:

1. It was an experiment to "try something different". For whatever reason it wasn't successful, so we've seen nothing more of it until this one example showed up.

2. It was designed for some other purpose and, for whatever reason, was deemed unnecessary and discontinued.

Either way it appears I have an unusual piece of Bundeswehr equipment.

Steve

[Guardian 5]

Steve - Here is one of my Bundeswehr map cases. It's not maker marked, but is stamped in the interior wall (in the same manner as a G-3 ammo pouch) with:

12-133-5838
4-62-48

I guess this would make it of 1962 manufacture, or two years older than yours?

All the best - TJ

[Guardian 5]

Another view of the front.

[Guardian 5]

Rear view.

[Guardian 5]

Interior view.

Overall, this case has the same look and feel as a "Oliv" / Division 59 G-3 ammo pouch.

All the best - TJ

[Guardian 5]

Steve - This next one isn't marked, but I attributed it to the Bundeswehr based on it's construction and the fact that it came in a Bundeswehr lot.

Chronologically, I placed it before the 1962 model, but that's the niche yours fills

[Guardian 5]

A rear view.