M43 cap, DDR or BGS?

[erovi]

Recently won this M43 style cap on ebay. I expect it to arrive soon. The seller said it was West German. I suspect it could be early DDR. Based on photos, can someone please confirm origin. Thanks

[Collectinsteve]

Looks like West German Police of some sort. Probably 1960s, but it could be 1950s.

It's hard to tell from the pictures which Polizei force it might be. There are several that used a green based cap with green piping. The shades of green are important because the basic cap design itself is fairly standard. Based on these photos I'd guess Hesse, but Rheinland-Pfalz is another possibility.

The 4 prong holes appears to indicate that a Schirmmütze badge was on there instead of the smaller 2 prong metal or cloth types normally found on M43 caps.

Perhaps Gordon can help you out if he has his set of books handy. Mine are packed away at the moment

Steve

[erovi]

Thanks Steve, I really appreciate your comments. I must add that I can only distinguish 2 prong holes and perhaps a third just above the one on the left side, although my eyesight is not what it used to be.

[Klaus1989]

I saw this on ebay and almost bid, but I noticed it was not early BGS. The prong holes would be for large Polizeistern. I see only 2. I think it is for Hessen, because Rheinland-Pfalz wore cloth insignia on Bergmütze.

Hessen:

http://www.stephan.de/php/de_neuesfe...4cb58e3eca6c8d

http://www.stephan.de/php/de_frameon...4cb58e3eca6c8d

regards
Klaus

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

I would say this is a West German cap because of the two airhole gromets in the sides and the buttons. As to it being polizei? The colour on my screen looks brown and I have been caught before making comments on a cap because of colour and it turned out that what it looked like in the picture on my screen and the actual colour were quite different. If it is really green then it is probably polizei and the sweat shield was removed so it could be sold as BGS at a higher price. The two holes in the front appear to be too far apart for them to have been made by a cockade.

Regards,

Gordon

[Klaus1989]

To me it looks grey with slight green, only last photo looks brown. I have early 1950s BGS cap (before shape became taller) with shield also removed. Some BGS details are completely different, especially colour, grey sweatshield and no visor stitches. From Steve's suggestions, I think 1950s Hessen Bepo is most likely.

I posted this photo before, but here again. Early 1950s BGS is left (right is late 50s BGS). Kokarden are original to both caps. The colours are crap because it was cloudy when I took photo. Colour difference is very little in reality. I need better photo. In period photos, they are easy to distinguish by shape.



regards
Klaus

[erovi]

Thank you all for your comments. I will post more details as soon as the cap arrives. Gordon, I got the cap for $6.50, and really don't know if it was a high price or a bargain.

[Gordon Craig]

erovi,

$6.50 is a bargain regardless of what the cap is. The one thing you can be sure of is that you wouldn't buy an early BGS cap for that price.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

I agree with Gordon, unless a couple dozen BGS collectors were asleep at the switch (which does happen), I doubt this is BGS. It obviously was worn with a large badge of some sort because the indentations I see likely would not occur if a collector put the wrong badge on it and stuck it on a shelf somewhere.

I'll upload a picture of my Hessen cap for comparison sometime today.

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

Here is my Hessen cap. No date on the inside, but the interior is consistent with the erovi's hat. Though it's a pretty standard interior arrangement, of course.

Steve

[Klaus1989]

Steves cap looks slightly different. There is no stich reenforcement on visor and colour is less grey (could be lighting). If more photos were posted of side to show grommets and inside, we could make better comparison.

The Hessen cap looks a little like my early BGS cap, except Hessen one is bluer, piping is different green and crown is slightly different (flatter) shape - BGS is more pinched in front.

regards
Klaus

[erovi]

I picked up the cap today and was suprised to find the colors are different from the photos I posted.

Specially the sweatband whcih is gray. The cap is blueish green, similar to the one posted by Steve (Hessen).

It has two badge holes 1 3/8 inches apart, and there is evidence that the badge that it had was flat bottom. It probably measured 2 x 1 3/4 inches.

The airhole gromets are gray.

The front of the cap measures 4 inches vertically and the back 3 inches.

There are no markings inside the sweatband.

The material is wool.

[Gordon Craig]

Erovi,

I wondered about the colours of the cap that you posted pictures of. I've been caught a couple of time when someone has asked me for help in identifying a cap and the picture they send don't have any relation to the actual colour of the cap.
The cap badge that you have described as once being on your cap is the same as the one on Steve's. I have compared it with one of these badges on one of my visor caps and the dimentions are the same. These are early police cap badges with a flat bottom. The later style cap badge is a smaller an complete star. I find it unusual to find this type of cap badge on an M43 style cap. They were produced for visor caps. However, many things were done in different police forces as each state was responsible for their own. Here are pictures of the flat botton cap badge on one of my visor hats.

Regards,

Gordon

[erovi]

Gordon,

I had noticed that my cap looked very similar to steve's, but didn't know his also used a flat bottom badge.

Would it be alright the to add a hessen's badge?

What period would my cap be?

Thanks

[Collectinsteve]

I'd "punt" and go for a Hessen badge. As long as you keep in mind that you may be wrong, and pass that information along as needed (to a buyer, when putting a photo up here, etc.), I think it's fine to make an educated guess. These badges come up for sale every so often, either alone or perhaps on a completely beat hat.

As for era, if Gordon doesn't have a ready answer I'll dig into my hat books and see if I can glean a transition date. I don't think it was as recent as 1970s, though.

BTW, normally you don't notice the flat bottom because on the peaked hat the chinstrap runs along the bottom, on the M43 the buttoned over area covers the bottom.

Steve