Another view of the same gentleman. Unfortunately, I don't have dates or locations on any of these pictures.
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Next up, litzen present on the lapels.Comment
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Finally, U.S. inspired branch insignia on the lapels.Comment
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Here is my only example. It is dated 1956 and I'm pretty sure the metal rank on this one is inappropriate, but it's what was on it when I bought it. Or more specifically, two far more beat up ones. I swapped them out for the ones on there now. I've been meaning to purchase more senior NCO metal rank, but of course it's hard to find exactly what I want.
Does anybody know the details of the early braiding on the epaulettes and when it was discontinued?
Steve
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Steve - That one is a beauty!
When am I getting the invite to view the collection first hand?
While we're on the subject of tunics, I thought I'd throw this picture into the mix. This is the first time I've seen pictures of the Luftwaffe dress tunic worn with an open collar shirt. Interestingly, all the troopers that are wearing the uniform in this manner are also wearing marching boots. Those wearing shirt and tie are clad in low quarter shoes.
I hope this adds to the conversation without distracting too much from the wonderful tunics posted by Jens and Steve.
All the best - TJComment
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Very interesting picture! And look more closely at the legs of the soldiers with boots and shirt over the collar tabs. What do you notice? Why, leg pockets of course
So what we have here are two basic, and consistent, forms of dress:
First:
1. Sidecap
2. Dress tunic with shirt and tie
3. Dress trousers
4. Dress shoes
Second:
1. Sidecap
2. Dress tunic with open shirt and no tie
3. Some form of 6 pocket trousers
4. Field boots
It is hard to tell, but the epaulettes look to be rounded. So this would probably be somewhere in the 1963-1967 range. Which would mean the trousers aren't likely Arbeitsanzug, but possibly 1st Model Moleskin or Filzlaus or something I've not seen before.
Very strange, but very consistent!
Steve
TJ, how about after I get my collection resorted? Late this year I hope. However, if you're coming up this way for lobsters or moose anyway... give me a heads up.Comment
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Gentlemen,
It is very possible that the airmen wearing the "trousers" with pockets are actually wearing flight suits with their tunics over them. The colour of the "trousers" and the "shirt collars" are the same unlike those in shirt and tie.
Regards,
GordonComment
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Good suggestion, Gordon! I can see that being compatible with the photo, provided the crew coveralls of that day had large leg pockets on the sides like that. I don't know enough about them either way to say.
SteveComment
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TJ, really cool pictures, especially of the Oberleutnant with the very special stile to wear the parade helmet...
Gordon, thanks for posting the pictures...I agree with you in may points, but "the problem" lives on: exactely in this tiny little picture book hoermann (and Kunstwadl) took the first official pictures of the BW unifoms from iI found the information on the long version of the Affenjacke. While the real Affenjacke - the short one with three rows of buttons - was issued to all rank (and so must have been produced without any piping and with altgold / silver / gold piping) the long version with four rows of buttons only should be worn by officers and NCO with portepee which all will have worn it wit a piping.
Steve, your Oberfeldwebel jacket seems to be a classic "upgrade" as it already has the collartabs attached instead of the metal emblems. The braiding also was invented in the late 50ies (for the exact date I have to look in the books...) so I have no problem with this jacket at all ...
Regards,
JensComment
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Jens,
Sorry, but I do not understand what you are trying to say here. All of the tunics that I have posted pictures of are authentic for the period that they represent. Hormann's pictures are correct as well and confirmed by the actual tunics in my collection. All of your tunics appear to have the same coloured metallic piping so it is difficult for me to tell which have what colour of piping. If you disagree with something I have said or have a problem with one of my tunics I would really apprecate it if you would be specific so that we could discuss it.
Regards,
GordonComment
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O.K., lets try again ... I think we are in a little communication problem. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your tunics - in contrast to mine they are even authentic ones...
The pictures you took out of Hoermans book are definitely from the first official regulation, printed late in 1956/early in 1957, showing all kind of dress variations with schematical pictures. It presents two types of dress uniform-jackets: The short one with three rows of buttons, aka Affenjacke, to be seen in your picture #10, intended to be worn by all ranks from EM to general. Beside the shoulderboards as rank insignia they differ by the edging of the collar. So this type sholud exist in at least four versions: No piping, altgold piping, silver piping and golden piping. The second type of jacket with four rows of buttons and two pockets, as yours in picture #12, is - according to text in this special regulation - intended to be worn only by the ranks "Uffz with portepee" or even higher. As all these ranks where allowed to wear at least the altgolden piping there would have been no demand to produce jackets without piping. But all jackets of this type featuring the altgolden piping I know where produced without piping and the cord was added later by hand, while all officers tunics look as if their piping already was applied during production. Also I´ve seen at least two of these long tunics showing rank insignia of a "Stabsunteroffizier" (incl. showing no piping) which - according to this rank - should not be worn by this rank. So there occured the (perhaps not world moving) question if there was a change in the regulation, the regulation was neglected or what ever...I hope the smoke clears a little...
Regards,
JensComment
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We need to keep in mind here the extremely short period of time being discussed. Even for a mature military, or other large organization, such transitions do not go perfectly. Soldiers misunderstand regulations, are not informed correctly, don't care, make use of stuff they already have, etc.
From my own perspective I allow 1-2 years of "confusion" between major shifts in uniforms. During this time period I accept a lot of odd things as legitimate, provided they pass certain basic authenticity tests. When I see "confused" examples extending beyond that period (in either direction) I get suspicious that what I'm looking at is a botched reconstruction (if it is a physical sample) or statistical outlier (if it is in a period photo).
My point here is that the BW was not a mature organization. It was still in its infancy. We already know of many confirmed changes that took place within the first 2 years, with more changes in the 2 years that followed and even more in the 3 years after. To me it makes sense that the first period of change had more variations than the later periods. Especially in the area of designating rank.
SteveComment
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Jens,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to me at length. I now understand fully what you are saying and as I thought, we are saying the same thing in different words. Thanks again for your response.
Regards,
GordonComment
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Hi Jens:
No, the first official regulations are from 1956 (Stand 1.2.1956). But February is not correct, because you can see the new "chromfarbenen" rank insignia for officers instead of the altgold rank insignia (change in July 1956).... the first official regulation, printed late in 1956/early in 1957 ...
Piping:
"Kragenumrandung bei allen Unteroffizieren altgold" = piping for all NCO's, from the rank Unteroffizier to the rank Stabsfeldwebel.
But, see the comment from Jens, only Feldwebel and Offiziere could wear the "long" tunic as "Ausgehanzug".
EM and Unteroffizier/Stabsunteroffzier must wear the "Affenjacke" as "Ausgehanzug".
All ranks have to wear the "Affenjacke" as "Dienstanzug.
Gordon, the Oberleutnant in Post 15/16 could be Heer, without the metal badges. And he could be Luftwaffe without the cuff titles.
He is on duty as an OvD, "Offizier vom Dienst", normally for 24 hours.
UweComment
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Team - Thanks for the input on my pictures!
Uwe - I never would have picked up on the "Offizier vom Dienst" distinction on my own. Danke!
Steve & Gordon - How the heck could I miss out on the pants!?
That's it, no more posting under the influence.....
Your comments made me recall an incident that occured in 1981 during U.S. Army Basic Training at Fort McClellan, Alabama.
One morning, we were told to fall out in a dress shirt, fatigue pants, boots and a ball cap. We had learned by then the painful lesson about never questioning the instructions of the drill sergeants. Soon afterwards, we were marched over to the orderly room. There, a photographer was set up. It was time for graduation pictures! There were about six dress jackets, one tie and a couple of hats. We grabbed a coat that fit about right, put on the tie, and grabbed a hat. After a quick photo, we passed the stuff onto the next guy in line.
Could this be the scenario we're seeing here?
Here’s the infamous graduation photo. From the waist down I’m in fatigues! In case you were wondering, I am not related to Ron "Opie" Howard.
All the best - TJComment
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