1960 Berlin Polizei Sumpftarn uniform

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

I tend to not remove any possible "modifications" to something like this that I buy. I've seen too many people remove shoulder boards etc from a tunic because "this tunic never used that type of shoulder board etc." only to find out later that they had ruined a very rare tunic. We really have know way of knowing who wore what and for what reason. As for someone wearing an early experimental jacket and making alterations as the years went a long, why not? Especially if he was a senior officer. Lets not forget that, up until recently, and to a certain extent today, the BW was considered to be a "citizen army". We have had many comments on the forum from guys who served in the BW about the unusual things that guys were allowed to wear or did to their uniforms.
I think Gene T is lucky to have this unusual piece added to his collection.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Absolutely agree with Gordon here. To emphasize my previous post... this very well could be a non-regulation uniform genuinely worn in service. But if someone knew the answer for sure, and put a gun to my head to guess the right answer "or else", I would guess that it was someone incorrectly putting stuff on to make it look better or thinking they were restoring it. If you look at 1000 "suspicious" uniforms out there, I bet very few of them turn out to be rare examples. So it's just a question of odds, and odds favor this being an incorrectly badged smock.

That being said, I also agree with Gordon that caution should be used before removing anything. I generally give something questionable like this 1-2 years before I make a decision one way or the other. Uniforms that are more clearly incorrectly badged, like a brand new uniform with very incorrect badging, get about 5 minutes before I tear the stuff off. So far, despite tearing stuff out/off of dozens of uniforms, I've not yet encountered a situation where I thought I was too hasty.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

The more I read about these articles of clothing the more confused I become. First off, what is the difference between what you term as a "smock" and what you term as a "jacket"? The term "parka" is also bandied about when it comes to BGS camo articles posted on the forum. Are either the "smock" or the "jacket" a parka? If not, what is the difference here?

Regards,

Gordon

Hi Klaus!

BEAUTIFUL 2nd Model jacket you have there. I've seen one of these dated 1958 with no provisions for rank. The one I have is undated and lacks provisions for rank. My guess is it was produced in 1958. Which is very curious because the 1st Model was also made in 1958. I have no pictures of the smocks being worn, but I do have a picture of the Splittertarn smock worn in 1957.

The problem with assembling this timeline is the early items did not have dates. Field photos are also often not dated, or imprecisely dated. There is also no way to tell if an item in a dated photo, say 1966, was made in that year or a reissue of a 1959 production. With that in mind, here are some thoughts based on my own personal observations:

• I have never seen any type of camouflage used prior to a 1957 dated photograph. I have not seen any undated pictures I would presume to be earlier than 1957.

• I've only seen Sumpftarn trousers dated 1958, 1959, and 1960. I have seen about 6 in person and probably another 6 online.

• I have never seen the Sumpftarn shelter dated earlier than 1959 or later than 1963. I've seen probably 10 with dates.

• I have never seen a Splittertarn shelter with a date at all. I have seen about 4 in person and another 6 online.

• I have never seen a Sumpftarn item dated 1964, 1965, or 1966.

• I have seen a Sumpftarn parka dated 1967, but never a Sumpftarn jacket dated earlier than 1968. I have seen dates on probably two or three dozen of each. I've had probably 10 or more jackets in my hands and about 4 parkas.

• The earliest dated photo I've seen with Sumpftarn is 1958. However, I have also never seen a picture with the smocks or 1st Model Jacket ever.

• In a batch of 1957-1959 photos I saw one picture of Splittertarn smocks in use, several with Splittertarn shelters worn as smocks. I presume this was from 1957 because the 1958 and 1959 pictures show Sumpftarn uniforms.

• In a batch of 1966-1968 pictures the 2nd Model Sumpftarn jacket and trousers are seen many times, but no 3rd Model Sumpftarn.

• A blue/gray version of 2nd Model was used in the middle 1960s. Since the Sumpftarn uniform was not for use in the border areas (except in time of war), it is probable that the uniform was intended for regular use while patrolling the border. I have items dated 1963 and 1965.

From the evidence of surviving examples and pictures here is a rough outline:

Splittertarn Smock and trousers - 1956 or 1957 only
Sumpftarn Smock - 1957 only
Sumpftarn 1st Model Jacket - 1957 only
Sumpftarn 2nd Model Jacket without rank - 1958 only
Sumpftarn 2nd Model Jacket with rank - 1959 through 1963
Sumpftarn 3rd Model Jacket with arm pocket - 1967 through 1975

My guess is that they produced enough jackets and trousers in the early 1960s that they did not need to produce more for the middle 1960s. Then around 1967 stocks started to run low so they started production of the 3rd Model.

Whatever the case is, they produced a great number of variations very quickly in the late 1950s. This is quite odd!! It is why for years I assumed that the Sumpftarn uniform was in use from the early 1950s. But I think that is not the case.

Steve

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Gordon,

Ah... the age old terminology problem. Yup, definitely a perpetual issue when describing things in text. The terms I used are generally "standard" within the camo collector community, but since there is no standard it's not surprising things aren't completely clear. Here's how I define the following:

Paraka - a winter garment that generally involves a hood.

Coat - a winter garment that generally does not involve a hood.

Jacket - the standard year round outer layer of a uniform. Can be pretty thin, can be pretty heavy duty.

Smock - similar to a jacket, but pulls over instead of zip/button up. Smock is also a common term for a special airborne jacket, regardless of how it is put on.

Shirt - usually a light duty item worn inside or under a Jacket.

Again, these are just my terms and I don't pretend to think they are correct for all situations all the time. But they are how I defined the various BGS items in this thread so in that sense they are useful.

I hope that helps!

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Very usefull thanks. One always needs some point of reference of terminology. The problem here, and this is one of the areas that confused me, in post #4 the items labeled as "First Model smock" and "Second Model Smock" both have zippers. I agree that the term smock usually refers to the FJ type garment that pulls on over the head and hence my original queery about your terminology use. Articles that have a zipper opening at the front don't seem to quaify in the "smock" categaory.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Gordon,

Yeah, terminology is difficult because adding definitions to every post is what is need, but it's damned boring to do

The two BGS Smocks are items that pull over the head. The zippers are only for the top portion of the front, the bottom portion does not open. So the term "smock" seems to be the most appropriate term for it. If the zipper went all the way down to the bottom, I think "jacket" would be the better term.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

Thanks for the clarification. It wasn't obvious, at least to me, just how long the zippers were. I have a much better idea know of how these smocks are configured.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gene T]

A quick follow-up to close the loop from my earlier post, now that I finally have the smock in hand. Much to my relief and delight, it is exactly as pictured on the dealer's site:




Other than the size tag in the collar area, I see no legible marking of any kind. Steve: Where would the date stamp be if there had been one?

The twin shoulder board loops are fashioned from Sumpftarn cloth and sewn using a different thread than the one used to apply the arm patches, indicating that these modifications took place on different occasions:




While the arm patches are not sewn using the dense zigzag stitching found on later issue jackets and parkas, the work looks relatively professional (those who have played with sewing machines know that it takes some skills to trace the curvature of the eagle patch so cleanly in the zigzag mode). Given that zigzag sewing machines capable of such work had been widely available since the late 1930s (e.g., those popular Bernina models), it's impossible to tell how long ago this modification was done based on the evidence at hand. One can only say that these patches have been on the smock long enough for some moth larvae to have munched on the backing cloth at some point: The three triangular holes seen below are bounded by the zigzag stitches, suggesting that the backing cloth was intact when the patch was sewn to the smock:





Whatever may be the true story behind these modifications, I think I'm going to play it safe and leave the whole thing as it is.


Gene T

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Gene,

Glad you got it and good that it was as expected. Some comments:

1. Definitely an original c.1958 production smock.

2. I am unaware of any stamps on these smocks, nor manufacturer's tags.

3. I'd check over the smock very carefully and see if the cloth for the rank loops was pulled from it.

4. I can do a better zig-zag stitching job than what I see from these pictures But we already know these badges don't belong on the jacket so this really isn't relevant.

5. I'm confused by the little triangles of felt that are missing. I don't know how such a precise interior bit of felt could be removed without other damage. The damage is, however, consistent with a badge which was removed without due care. Though I agree it's kinda strange no matter what.

6. The eagle badge is from before the mid 1960s, which is prior to when the arc came into use. So it's a little odd to see the two used in conjunction with each other. But again, we know that neither of these are original to the smock so that doesn't mean much either.

Too bad a story didn't come with the purchase! It would be nice to have some information about how this came to be.

Steve

[Gene T]

Thanks for the feedback, Steve, as always.

I did inspect the smock carefully. If the shoulder board loops had been salvaged from smock material, the material must have come from a different smock: This example is completely intact. In fact, I am a little surprised by the simplicity of its design and construction. It is not at all "overbuilt" like other uniform items of that period. Even the button holes are done on a cheaper machine. There is really no extra materials anywhere to salvage from without inflicting visible damages to the garment.

The zigzag stitch work on the patches indicates that the sewing machine used had had insufficient upper tension, or else the tailor/seamstress had selected slightly too large a needle for the thread size. Older sewing machines were sensitive to sub-optimal settings and required precise adjustments for each fabric/thread combination to produce ideal results. I would give the work here a solid "B". Personally, I rarely manage to do better than "D+" using these types of machines.

Since period photos of these smocks being worn are so rare (nonexistent?), I guess we may never know for certain one way or the other who made these modifications and when. I have asked the vendor for provenance info, but I suspect it was a trade-in with no history, as it was offered at a surprisingly low price.

Regardless, it was a good acquisition to end the year on.


Gene T

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Gene,

No matter how you look at it, you did awesome with this one. And considering someone in Germany just paid EUR 900 for one... you certainly didn't overpay

I've seen more than a dozen of these smocks go up for sale. Never have they had shoulder rank, never have they had arm badges. This is consistent with the other type of Sumpftarn smock (though I have the only example I've ever seen), the previous Splittertarn smock, and the other experimental 1958 jacket. The 2nd Model Jacket also had no arm badges and initially had no shoulder rank. That was added at some point in the 2nd Model production run. We also know that the Bundesgrenzschutz arcs weren't added to any BGS uniform until the late 1960s after the 3rd Model was already in service.

The material for the loops could have come from three sources:

1. A detachable hood
2. Another smock or jacket
3. Possibly a Zeltbahn, though the material doesn't look correct for that


All of this tells us is that the badging and shoulder rank attachments are not original. That's pretty certain. Which means the only question is if these were added by a collector or if someone wore this while in service sometime after 1969 or so. As you know, I lean towards this being a collector modification.

We'll probably never know

Steve

[michelwijnand]

grey pants

Does anyone have a source for the grey/greenish trousers for under a 3rd model sumpf jacket? I have just scoured Ebay.de to no avail, maybe I just don't know the right search words or they're really not there now.

Also, I read this:
• I have seen a Sumpftarn parka dated 1967, but never a Sumpftarn jacket dated earlier than 1968. I have seen dates on probably two or three dozen of each. I've had probably 10 or more jackets in my hands and about 4 parkas.

I don't know if it's interesting or not but mine is dated 1967, it has rank provisions on the shoulders and early badging marks, the threads are still there but not the patch, and no sign of an arc been there.

Cheers,
Michel

[Collectinsteve]

Hi Michel,

Oooo!!! That is interesting information about the 1967 jacket!! First confirmation I have seen about this. Great! Two questions for you:

1. Does the pen pocket flap use standard snaps or "post" type snaps? If you don't know what "post" type is then the answer is "no"

2. Any sign of the jacket having buttons for a hood? I have a 1968 jacket with a hood and I have seen one other like this. The hood fabric is not the same as the early 1960s type so it definitely isn't an old hood on a newer jacket.

I wish I could help you source some of the old gray field trousers. I have a couple of them and was very lucky. The first one I won on eBay maybe 5 years ago. It was a terrible, blurry photo but I recognized what it was. The second one I also got on eBay around the same time. The third one I got along with a jacket from a former BGS member. I have not seen any for years.

Be careful though! I know that there is also a Polizei version. It is a little more green, but on eBay will probably look the same. I've got one from S-H.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Gents,

I'm getting a bit confused here. This started as a PP Bln thread and has wandered into BGS, which I realize was probably a normal progression, but I think we need to get back on topic and probably start another thread on these interesting BGS items. I have some questions so with the permission of those who posted BGS items to this PP Bln thread I will start a new BGS thread and move the BGS posts there. There is a number of interesting BGS posts and we will never find them a few months from now. Sorry for being delinquent in my Moderator duties. I should have suggested this some time ago.

Regards,

Gordon

[michelwijnand]

jacket

If a new thread will be coming you can count me in

And Steve:
1 I don't know what posttype is so I guess no, could you explain to me what the difference is? Does it have to do with pebbled or smooth surface as in some other objects?
2 I'll check tomorrow if it has the buttons since my "depot" is some kilometers away in the next town over.

Anyway here's a pic of it, I will sometime get myself some pants for it, and also boots and a goed belt, slap on my other rhings I have for it and make it a complete impression:


Cheers,
Michel