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**Gordon Craig** · 03-19-2010, 02:00 PM

Klaus,

Interesting pictures of the BGS on skis. The skis look very similar in pattern to WWII skis but are brown instead of the white ones used by the Wehrmacht.

Regards,

Gordon

**Collectinsteve** · 03-20-2010, 10:43 PM

Hi Klaus,

It's very, very unusual for so many concurrent variations manufactured and fielded in such a short period of time except as field trials of experimental models. It is also curious that the BGS liked to clearly label their uniforms before and after this period, yet markings do not appear to be standard until the 2nd Model Jacket and trousers. This does tend to support the theory that the following items were experimental:

1st Model Smock
2nd Model Smock
1st Model Jacket

It would also explain why the apparent 2nd Model of smock had less pockets than either the earlier Splittertarn Smock and all of the jackets.

My guess is that the 1st Model Jacket was either chosen and improved before going into major production *or* as part of the trials a more-or-less 2nd Model Jacket was also part of the trials.

Obviously this is informed conjecture, but it does offer an explanation of the facts we do know. And in my opinion is more likely than they made 4 different uniforms in 1-2 years one after the other.

Steve

**Klaus1989** · 03-21-2010, 08:38 PM

Steve,
As I said, it was the actual intention (not only plan) to issue smock and jacket to BGS in 1958, but smock was unpopular and not needed, so production was ended. This is information I have received from a couple BGS collectors. I would guess smock was intended to wear over Dienstanzug for fast camo (unlikely ever worn this way though) and jacket for camo field uniform, but I do not know reason both were issued.

Are you sure your smock with two pockets was issued after one with four pockets? It could be trial model from 1957/58 uniform trials, and then decided to use same modification of splittertarn in sumpftarn instead. Would explain why so rare, but maybe you have more information about this style than I have.

regards
Klaus

**Collectinsteve** · 03-22-2010, 12:54 AM

Hi Klaus,

Unfortunately I have no information about the smock at all. My guess is that it was a parallel experimental item *or* a second attempt to make a smock that would be found acceptable. I think this because, generally speaking, that is how things are done. Very rarely do you see an established pattern (Splittertarn smock) get modified (2 pocket smock) and then "unmodified" (back to a 4 pocket smock) to an identical copy of the earlier model. Of course it is possible, but it really isn't likely in my opinion.

If the BGS tried a 4 pocket smock, then a 2 pocket smock, then back to a 4 pocket smock I would expect major differences between the last one and the first one. Why? Because if the tailoring was deemed insufficient enough to make a 2 pocket version, why would they make an exact copy of something they already figured they didn't want? It would make no sense, which is why I can't think of a single example of this happening. The closest thing I've seen happen is a "retro" issue of new stuff in an old pattern. However, it generally is many years/decades later and it isn't exactly the same.

So again, my current theory is both Sumpftarn smocks and the 1st Model Sumpftarn jacket were experimental. This explains their small numbers. It explains why there are three different models (probably) issued concurrently. It also explains why there are no markings on any of these items.

It explains why there aren't photos (or many) of these things even for the year they were made. It also explains why the BGS museum does not have any of these examples on display. Yet they do have a display of the 2nd Model Sumpftarn and trousers next to the gray model jacket and trousers next to the 3rd Model Sumpftarn jacket and gray wool trousers. All are listed as Einsatzanzug with different date ranges which, unfortunately, I can't read from the picture I have

I wish there was a detailed book that could provide us with answers, but unfortunately I don't know of one.

Steve

**Collectinsteve** · 03-22-2010, 01:02 AM

Here is the BGS Museum picture I spoke of. A friend took this for me a few years ago. Gordon/Thomas... if this is too big let me know and I'll knock it down.

Steve

**Gordon Craig** · 03-22-2010, 07:19 AM

Steve,

Great picture from the BGS museum. I must get there some time. Perhaps next year we/I could arrange a"tour" of interesting places like this in Europe.

Regards,

Gordon

**Klaus1989** · 03-22-2010, 11:14 AM

The displays could be better, but I will still have to visit that museum next time I am in Germany. Reminds me, I have twill Schiffchen like manniquin on right that I need to post here sometime.

Steve,
I think you misunderstood my theory. It was that two pocket was trialed with older four-pocket design (but in sumpftarn) as possible improvement, but four-pocket smock was found to still be better and two-pocket concept was abandoned and never adopted. I have heard from two collectors that four-pocket smock was issued for several months in 1958, so I will believe them, until I find it not true.

regards
Klaus

**Collectinsteve** · 03-22-2010, 08:21 PM

Klaus,

Ah, thanks for the clarification. However, it doesn't change my theory at all. In fact, it reinforces it in my opinion.

Again, the problem I have is that in about 1 year there were roughly 3 completely different top designs, none of which were kept in service. To me this is a sign that there was a trial in effect. Which of the 3 was least popular and worn the longest or shortest isn't really important since none of the 3 were selected.

We definitely need some official information!

Steve

**Klaus1989** · 03-22-2010, 10:44 PM

Another forum member here, Sgt Monroe has talked some veterans from this time in BGS and knows more about the sumpftarn uniform trials in 1957-58, but I have not seen him post since months. He was able to clarify some questions I had about early uniform regulations, but to find the original German copies about uniform tests from 1950s will not be easy.

regards
Klaus

**Collectinsteve** · 03-23-2010, 12:13 AM

Yes, I agree that finding source material is going to be very difficult for us. Our best hopes is for someone to do a detailed study of the history of BGS uniforms for a book and for us to just buy a copy

My experience with veteran memories of very small details from 40-60 years ago is that they must be taken with a grain of salt. Partly because even if they remember the details correctly what they knew back then might not have been correct to begin with. Or incomplete.

Veterans who have photo albums, journals, etc. are generally better sources. But again, what the rank and file knew at the time as "fact" might not have been.

Our problem is we have very little veteran information and even less official information. This is not a good combination.

Steve

**Hugh Zillmann old** · 03-23-2010, 02:53 AM

Hello All,

This topic was previously discussed by Sgt Monroe in the thread dealing with Bundesgrenzschutz uniforms (post # 327). This is what he had to say:

"The trousers stopped being "general issue" in 1968-69. They still appear from time to time later but not as "general issue". The green Einsatzanzug would be the standard "field uniform" worn during this period of time. Some units wear the "third pattern" sumpftarn jacke [with "pen pocket"] well into the 1970's [but without the matching camouflage trousers].

The "Bundesgrenzschutz" arc was added to the uniforms sometime after 1971 [I believe it was to be on all uniforms by 1974 as pictures from that date show grenzers with it and without it].

The Bergmuetze [mountain cap] was standard BGS issue and a lightweight version was produced to be worn with the green Einsatzanzug [as was the BGS version of the Schiffchen - or as we called it the "c*nt cap" - which was also beginning to be issued].

So for summer 1968 a grenzer would more than likely be wearing the green Einsatzanzug with either field cap [or the helmet]; the "third pattern" sumpftarn jacke [either over the green jacke or in place of it]; belt, suspenders, G1 pouches, green breadbag, post-1962 canteen, folding e-tool; and armed with the G1.

The image below is dated during the fall of 1968 showing the green Einsatzanzug in use."

Unfortunately, the image has now been deleted, but it did show Grenzer wearing a complete 'green' uniform (of the cut and style of the camouflage variety).

Cheers,

Hugh

**Collectinsteve** · 03-23-2010, 10:23 AM

Yup, that sounds pretty accurate to me. Or at least it's close to what I've mangaged to piece together from the various photos, discussions, and dated garments. I also agree that 1971 was some sort of milestone for the use of arcs, though the use of them is quite muddled. Perhaps by some earlier uniforms having the arcs added after production.

Steve

**Klaus1989** · 03-23-2010, 04:45 PM

Here are some infos about introduction of sumpftarn by sgtmonroe from BGS thread (have to search through many pages to find this). Unfortunately, all his photos are removed before I could save them. No explanation of two-pocket sumpftarn though.

The "first pattern" sumpftarn jacke [cut the same as the splittertarn jacke - first issued in 1953] were issued at the same time the "second pattern" jacke were. The first two sumpftarn jacke were unveiled at the Mosel training exercises in late 1958. The "first pattern" sumpftarn jacke were quickly discarded due to being a "pull over" type garment - a really bad idea for a piece of "combat clothing".

I have only seen a few pictures of the "first pattern" sumpftarn jacke in use. And it is in photos taken in 1959! The "second pattern" jacke was favored much more by the grenzers.

Now to answer Klaus' question. From what I understand from veterans the original sumpftarn items were all unveiled [the smock, jacke, trousers, and field cap] during the October 1958 training exercise at Mosel aka the Moselübung. Here is an image of a BGS-Pionier taken sometime between 13. -17. October 1958 wearing the sumpftarn jacke, trousers, and Feldmütze.

**Collectinsteve** · 03-23-2010, 06:52 PM

Thanks for digging up more old info Klaus.

I would say it is correct that the Splittertarn Zeltbahn (and detached hood/helmet cover) was issued very early. Probably 1953. It seems to be commonly seen worn as personal camouflage in field exercises prior to the adoption Sumpftarn. It was certainly used well into the 1960s for shelter.

But I'm not so sure that the Splittertarn smock was issued much earlier than Sumpftarn. If it was available since the start of the BGS, then why are the Zeltbahns seen so commonly in the field before the adoption of Sumpftarn? Additionally, the only picture I have of Splittertarn in use is 1955 or later based on the accompanying equipment. And if they did have the smock and trousers in 1953, why a nearly 5 year gap before the adoption of Sumpftarn when it's clear that the Splittertarn uniform was produced in numbers far too small to have serviced the BGS for 5 years?

My guess is that when the BW started to be formed, with a camouflage uniform, the BGS decided they would do the same. They had Splittertarn cloth in hand already, so it is logical that they used what they had for their first trials. They didn't like the pattern for a uniform (too similar to BW?) so they quickly moved to Sumpftarn.

Again, this is all conjecture due to a terrible lack of information at our disposal

Steve

**Guardian 5** · 03-23-2010, 09:12 PM

Gents - I've posted this c. 1963 jaeger before, but thought it was appropriate to post him again.

I'll see if I can find the full length shot that shows the wear of the "Y riemen" underneath the shoulder flaps of the tunic.

All the Best - TJ

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1960 Berlin Polizei Sumpftarn uniform

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