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Billy Kramer

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    #1

    Flight Jacket restoration

    My latest BW leather flight jacket arrived the other day. Very nice condition but missing its badging. The person I purchased it from bought it locally in Germany and knows nothing of the original owner.

    This particular jacket is from 1980 and has holes from previously sewn-on patches, as follows:

    -- indications of a (presumed) name tape on the upper left breast
    -- indications of rank on each arm, below the flag, 5.2cm wide x 5.7cm tall (which seems very short compared to my other jackets)
    -- outline of a wing-type patch on the upper right breast (~11cm wide).
    -- outline of a unit patch on lower right breast. Circular shape about 9.5cm with a triangular projection (~2 cm) pointing outwards at the 2-o'clock position.

    I'll try and post images later. Very difficult to get good pics of the stitching holes.

    The wing appears that it could be either a pilot or other crew wing. The stitch outline fits both.

    The arm rank is what has me a bit confused. My other jackets have rank patches that are the same size as the slip-on shoulder rank. This jacket has rank that is rather square. Would it be normal to cut down the rank to fit the space between the flag and the top of the sleeve pocket?
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    #2
    Chris,

    The answer to your question is yes. On another thread one of the ex BW Luftwaffe members said that there was no specific rank patch for these jackets. That normally the tailor adapted the shoulder ranks as he/she saw fit. Sometimes they cut off the bottom and sometimes they just sewed on the whole thing. I would say your jacket fits into what Steve said.

    Regards,

    Gordon

    Comment

      #3
      Try to make pics of the stitching.

      Concerning the short rank patches, most probable would be a Leutnant, Oberleutnant or Major, as these ranks can be cut short without problems.

      Have a nice evening,
      Steve

      Comment

        #4
        Here's the patch outline I'm hoping to identify. I've darkened the photo a bit to try and make the holes more visible. The outline for the wing is just above it.

        The circular patch is approximately 9.5cm around. I had originally thought the patch might be JG74 but I think the shape is wrong (triangle projection would be smaller and the JG74 patch has a scroll under the circular part).

        The other potential challenge is that I have no idea if this was a Heer, Marine, or Luftwaffe jacket.

        Comment

          #5
          Sprogcollector,

          I tried to do this once with my jackets and eventually gave up on the unit/squadron patch. It is virtually impossible ti establish what the crest was at one time from the sewing marks on the jacket. There were just too many crests. Since Steve has told us in the other thread that jackets were reused and other patches of different shapes sewn on them you could put any unit/squadron pathc on this jacket that you want and it would be fine. I have a grey leather flight jacket that clearly indicates, because of the sewing machine marks, that two entirely different patches were sewn onto the jacket ai two different times.
          As for the wings, they are all basically the same shape so put on what you want. The possibility of someone replacing the removed wings/patches in the same sewing holes are virtually nil.
          Good luck in your hunt any way.

          Regards,

          Gordon

          Comment

            #6
            Hi Gordon,
            This was mostly an academic exercise. I wanted to see if I could figure out what was once there. As was already noted, multiple changes to the patches was commonplace.

            I am surprised that there doesn't appear to have ever been any type of standardization within the Luftwaffe regarding patch locations, etc.

            Comment

              #7
              The wing looks like a pilot to me, as the WSO has a more circular center. Just a feeling from the shape.

              And the patch could in fact be JG 74, as earlier wing patches had a circular shape without the extra "Mölders" or (today) "JG 74" added at the bottom.
              Last edited by RamJet; 11-28-2009, 08:30 PM.

              Comment

                #8
                Gents - I thought this illustration of BW Squadron patches would be of assistance to those trying to reconstruct their flight jackets.

                It's hard to read the headings, let me know if you need help.

                I may have a few of these patches laying around in the "trade box". If you need one let me know.

                All the best - TJ
                Attached Files

                Comment

                  #9
                  TJ,
                  Thanks for posting the image of the patches. At this point, I'm inclined to agree with Ramjet's suggestion that my jacket likely had the early version of the JG-74 patch (minus the bottom tab/scroll with "JG-74" in it).

                  Chris

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Team - Manions is currently offering this squadron patch.

                    All the best - TJ
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Just a brief update on my jacket restoration project.

                      Thanks to TJ for sending me a large assortment of rank slip-ons for use in replacing the missing patches and badging!!

                      I was not able to match up a JG-74 patch with the existing stitch holes. I think there was a somewhat similar shaped but different patch here and I've given up on finding a match at this point.

                      For Luftwaffe nametapes: white-on-navy (dark) blue or white-on-medium (royal) blue?

                      My question for now is which rank patches to use -- blue or olive w/wing? Does anyone know when the blue rank started to be seen on the flight jacket? Possibly it has been all along? I don't know. In this 1988 photo, most seem to be wearing olive rank on the orange suit. Photo via the AG-51 website
                      Last edited by SprogCollector; 09-11-2010, 02:46 PM.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Sprogcollector,

                        The only rank insignia I see being worn on the leather jackets in this photo is khaki. My jacket that is dated 1976 and has the blue velcro still on it has blue rank tabs sewn to the arm with white rank stars and no wing.

                        Regards,

                        Gordon

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Hi Gordon,
                          Thanks for your comments. Lots of variables to consider. My jacket is 1980-dated. It's really a meaningless fact as it could have sat on a shelf in stores for 10+ years or have been issued within days of production. Really no way to tell.

                          The photo surprised me in several ways -- and again this may or may not be typical of the era (1988). I was surprised to see orange flight suits still in use. When I was stationed in BRD in the late 80s, the pilots I saw were all wearing blue or green flying kit. I was also surprised to see that very few appear to have wings on their jackets.

                          Of those with visible sleeve rank, I would agree that all appear to be wearing the olive version. The officer sitting near the rear cockpit seems to have rank without the small wing at the bottom -- i.e. 'army' rank. Little nuances that come to light during detailed inspection.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            The blue rank tabs came in use in the mid-1980s, the blue-grey coveralls at the end of the 80s. Sorry, but I can't exactly remember when I got my first blue-grey one.

                            Concerning the rank tabs, everything was possible: olive with and without wing (if without wing, usually a wing was attached above the national flag which was common practise until the rank tabs with wings came into use, also in the first half of the 1980s). Or blue-backed ones, standard ones or even privately purchased machine-embroidered tabs. Just do what You like if You want to represent a typical 1990 Luftwaffe flight jacket.

                            Name-tags were white on medium blue and from the mid-80s on also white on dark blue. The white on dark blue tabs were invented for use with the blue rank tabs on the then new dark blue Pullover. Until the beginning of the 80s You usually encountered medium blue name tags with larger white letters on flying clothing, the standard USAF tags.

                            Hope that helps.

                            Oh, I forgot: Don't worry if Your JG 74 patch don't match, they came in slightly different sizes depending on the date of the order.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              For the moment, I think I may make my jacket a transition from old AG-51 (Eule) to the new AG-51 Panther.

                              Patch from the RF-4 Phantom years


                              1. Staffel



                              1. Staffel at the Last Call!!

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