Dienstanzugsjacken BW

[Asbjoern]

Your right with the iron cross as national insigina on vehicles etc... you noticed that. But those who where against the award maybe only heard the words "award" and "ironcross" and imagined scarfaced guys in nazi-uniformed guys wearing ironcrosses around their necks... ... no sense for history is widespread today !
War or not war...althoug the former minister of defence continued to state that the talibanchase is just a stabilzation operation this should defend the freedom of germany...

Regards,

Jens

[Klaus1989]

Hello Gentlemen,

Have you ever seen anything quite as ugly as a beret.

I mean, really, it must be the most unflattering item of male head adornment ever devised.

During my time with the ADF, we started wearing these things as items of both field and service dress. I looked like a cream puff with a cherry on the top!

Why, oh why does the Bundeswehr think this is such a 'leap forward'.

Give me a bergmutze or schirmutze any day...........

Cheers,

Hugh

It looks even funnier and stranger on generals!

regards
Klaus

[LuckyStrike23]

By the way, who would one speak to about possibly resurrecting old-traditions and designing uniforms/reinstating older variants with more prussian influence?

Absolutely no chance in Germany I can assure you. In contrary - there is a prozess going on to ban every kind of old tradition within the BW- and this prozess is nearly completely achieved.

[SprogCollector]

The Prussian military tradition continues to exist -- although no longer in Europe. The Chilean military is/was profoundly influenced by both French and Prussian military tradition. Very much evident in this recent military parade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf1IYDuX3TU

I would agree with LuckyStrike in that there's very little chance of any revival of military tradition earlier than the start of the BW. Primarily due to WW2 still be very much in living memory.

I'm sure the very creation of the Bundeswehr must have been a nightmare for those charged with putting it together. The original senior officer and NCO ranks would have, of necessity, included large numbers of former Wehrmacht soldiers, sailors, and airmen. I would say impossible to remove tradition at the unit level with so many key personnel filling the senior ranks.

I was stationed in Germany in the mid-1980s and frequently visited GAF airbases. Celle, in particular, had huge portraits of past airmen in the officers mess. When I was there, Mölders, Steinhoff, Boelke, and Immelman were hanging on the walls. The TR LW portraits were in full uniform -- only the hakenkreuz being blurred out.

I guess my point is that many traditions survive. You just need to look as they're not as overt they once were.

[Klaus1989]

I think the Bundeswehr received much criticism for their Großer Zapfenstreich for 50 Jahre Bw four years ago. I think this illustrates how many feel about "Prussian" traditions, when they are criticised for everything.

regards
Klaus

[LuckyStrike23]

The Prussian military tradition continues to exist -- although no longer in Europe. The Chilean military is/was profoundly influenced by both French and Prussian military tradition. Very much evident in this recent military parade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf1IYDuX3TU

I would agree with LuckyStrike in that there's very little chance of any revival of military tradition earlier than the start of the BW. Primarily due to WW2 still be very much in living memory.

I'm sure the very creation of the Bundeswehr must have been a nightmare for those charged with putting it together. The original senior officer and NCO ranks would have, of necessity, included large numbers of former Wehrmacht soldiers, sailors, and airmen. I would say impossible to remove tradition at the unit level with so many key personnel filling the senior ranks.

I was stationed in Germany in the mid-1980s and frequently visited GAF airbases. Celle, in particular, had huge portraits of past airmen in the officers mess. When I was there, Mölders, Steinhoff, Boelke, and Immelman were hanging on the walls. The TR LW portraits were in full uniform -- only the hakenkreuz being blurred out.

Chile bought LeopardII some years ago and there was/is a German training team in Chile. One of the participants told me the same, the army of Chile is the most prussian army in the world - but only in dressing and marching. Treatment of soldiers and behaviour was much more influenced by the French. A human beginns with the rank of a leutnant. This caused some trouble because most of the German teachers were senior NCOs.

You may find some comparitiv traditons as you mentioned in German tank school in Munster. The officers club "Casino Cornett" is quite nice and there is some kind of a "forbidden zone" (forbidden for every kind of strangers and journalists).

[SprogCollector]

The Bundeswehr has always been a paradox. I think an ongoing process of trying to find its footing and heritage.

Großer Zapfenstreich = bad

Marching to Preussen Gloria = okay

Geschwader Mölders = bad

Geschwader Boelke, Richthofen, or Steinhof = okay

Prussian-inspired officer shoulder straps = bad

Prussian-inspired Doppellitzen collar tabs = okay

Iron Cross medal = bad

Iron Cross as national marking = okay

Edelweiß sleeve badge = bad

Edelweiß cap emblem = okay

[LuckyStrike23]

I would not agree with these:

Großer Zapfenstreich = widely accepted

Marching to Preussen Gloria = well, soldiers cannot march with Michael Jackson

Geschwader Mölders = a left wing intrigue within the Bundestag (because he was a member of Legion Condor)

Geschwader Boelke, Richthofen, or Steinhof = (still) okay

Prussian-inspired Doppellitzen collar tabs = okay, but first in 1957/58, the early ones looked like the US-Army (there were some rumours in the past, that because of the new branch Streitkraeftebasis they wanted to introduce a completely new dress uniform for all german soldiers - i think at the moment the lack of money preserves the Bundeswehr before it.)

[SprogCollector]

My mistake. I was typing quickly and was thinking of Stechschritt (Stechmarsch) and pasted in Großer Zapfenstreich.

What I meant was Stechmarsch (goose step) = bad
Preußens Gloria = okay

[Axel]

Absolutely no chance in Germany I can assure you. In contrary - there is a prozess going on to ban every kind of old tradition within the BW- and this prozess is nearly completely achieved.

Really you think it is so bad? What process might this be and how can you be so sure if I may be so curious to ask?

My theory is that these traditions are being phased out for two reasons:

1. Simply stupidity and pure ignorance...people who are left, or are akin to "antideutsche" are among the most idiotic people I have ever met and while they are not out doing drugs or having sex-orgies involving animals, they instead bitch about why Germany as a country still exists today because of a 12 year period known as the 3rd Reich...mind you these are the same people who believe that having an army today is irrational and while many may wish this to be a reality it sadly is and never can be a reality in our world to not need a military. Need I also remind these thick-headed imbeciles that we did indeed "lose" the war and the 3rd Reich was abolished. It's also not as if our generation has not apologized countless times for attrocities not even our parents and not many of our grandparents committed...Even funnier, we have leftist politicians like Julia Bonk who had the gall to try and ban the German flag during the 2006 world cup which was a horrible fail http://www.atlantic-times.com/archiv...p?recordID=560

It's a good article and I recommend reading it all to those who are interested in German sentiments on patriotism and nationalism ^^

2. Germany is also not evoking honorable traditions because of a lack of patriotism and real need for it...really the only way for the Iron Cross and other traditions to actually come to fruition again is that they would need a war or conflict to break out in Germany...

My take on the subject is, it's not a matter of "if" Germany will reinstate more traditions or the iron cross again but instead "when"...so long as we continue to make "replacements" for traditions...that is all that they will ever truly be are "replacements" and nothing more =/
But regardless of the futility that may arise, I still fully intend to address the question of tradition in Germany's military one sure day...just guide me (since Im not too sure who to deliberate with) and so it shall it be done.

[Axel]

The Prussian military tradition continues to exist -- although no longer in Europe. The Chilean military is/was profoundly influenced by both French and Prussian military tradition. Very much evident in this recent military parade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf1IYDuX3TU

I would agree with LuckyStrike in that there's very little chance of any revival of military tradition earlier than the start of the BW. Primarily due to WW2 still be very much in living memory.

I'm sure the very creation of the Bundeswehr must have been a nightmare for those charged with putting it together. The original senior officer and NCO ranks would have, of necessity, included large numbers of former Wehrmacht soldiers, sailors, and airmen. I would say impossible to remove tradition at the unit level with so many key personnel filling the senior ranks.

I was stationed in Germany in the mid-1980s and frequently visited GAF airbases. Celle, in particular, had huge portraits of past airmen in the officers mess. When I was there, Mölders, Steinhoff, Boelke, and Immelman were hanging on the walls. The TR LW portraits were in full uniform -- only the hakenkreuz being blurred out.

I guess my point is that many traditions survive. You just need to look as they're not as overt they once were.

Oh believe me it was quite stressful when the bundeswehr was first created...I remember reading an article on that period when one of the first German defense ministers after the war was told my an american official "Keep in mind how you're soldiers will look when they must travel to france again and perform excercises, and consider with caution that they not look as they did marching through the arch in paris years back." I wish we would have just been like the NVA and made propaganda videos on how the allies cannot hinder our proud prussian traditions with capitalist repose like they do the military in west Germany . Wish I could find those videos btw...=p
But nevertheless the NVA still lacked a few important German traditions that our bundeswehr retained(s)

I'm sure in about 50 years or so this whole "nazi mentality" will be put more to rest finally and hopefully then traditions will re-emerge.
And I am glad you were able to see this at Celle and would love to hear more from you on this subject ^^

[Asbjoern]

O.K., back to topic: Dienstanzugsjacken

A fellow collector just aquired a Dienstanzugsjacke form a Oberstarzt made around 1960. It is a privat purchased tunik still bearing the original pointed shoulderboards. Overall nothing uncommon on this item but one little detail: the oakleaves and stars on the shoulderboards are embroidery work made of "silver" wire and not of the standart pressed metal type!

Has anyone seen this before ?? At the moment I have no pictures of this tunic, they`ll follow as sooon as possible !

Jens

[Guardian 5]

Gents,

I received this group photo a while back that shows older models of the Heer and Luftwaffe Dienstanzugsjacke off to good effect.

It's interesting to note that the two of the Luftwaffe men are wearing foreign wings. The Luftwaffe man standing second from the top on the left side of the staircase appears to be wearing basic American pilot wings. The Luftwaffe man seated on the bench farthest to the left seems to be wearing wings from a Commonwealth nation, perhaps Canada (cheers Gordon!).

You can also see the strong presence of World War II veterans. The sign on the doorway reads:

OvB
Wa S Lw 50

Does anyone know what this stands for or has any guess as to when and wear the picture was taken?

All the best,
TJ

[uscob]

OvB is normally the Offizier vom Bereitschaftsdienst and the Rest means the Waffenschule der Luftwaffe 50. It was created in 1958 in Erding near Munich as a school for Reconnaisance Pilots.

[hoover]

@Hugh - im 100% with you ! Even the old sidecap looks better! But maybe its also a kind of "non-tradition" as the beret replaced all these WH stile headgear as sidecap and M43 stile filedcap... but be shure - even many active BW soldieres dislike these hats . Especially the red version is called "Notaus-Knopf" (emergency shutdown buzzer)

Oh yes!

The Paras are loving their maroon beret , but most of the other branches (with no realtions to british or french elite units) wold rather wear a piped sidecap or the old peaked cap. And especially since the fashion victims are using smaller berets ("commando style" ) it is a very ugly looking headdress.

I don´t like the beret but in my Landeskommando we are not wearing the camo field. The Oberst doesn´t like it...

Bye
Frank