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    #1

    Dienstanzugsjacken BW

    Some weeks ago I took the chance and aquired some "grey stuff". Although my main interest is on the fiedgear of the BW (and other organisations) some of the grey stuff is a "must have".
    First item is the tuinc of a Leutnant of the Panzertruppe. It still bears the old stile shoulder boards which where replaced from 1963 on:





    Second item is the uniform of an Oberstleutnant, allready with the "new" roundedget shoulderboards, but still with the douled cuff. This OTL was - depending on the little awards in the 1957 stile - a well decorated WW2 veteran...







    With the tunic (and the trouser) came the greatcoat made of the thick whool fabric..





    Jens
    Tags: None
    #2
    ...what I forgot...

    While both of the tunics are custommade (As I remeber both made by the "Kleiderkasse Koblenz") the greatcoat is "of the shelve", made depending on the label, in 1956. As most of the 1956 coats it was modernized with the new stile shoulderboards - I own 3 1956 greatcoats none cam with the original boards.
    Jens

    Comment

      #3
      Originally posted by Asbjoern View Post
      Some weeks ago I took the chance and aquired some "grey stuff". Although my main interest is on the fiedgear of the BW (and other organisations) some of the grey stuff is a "must have".
      First item is the tuinc of a Leutnant of the Panzertruppe. It still bears the old stile shoulder boards which where replaced from 1963 on:





      Second item is the uniform of an Oberstleutnant, allready with the "new" roundedget shoulderboards, but still with the douled cuff. This OTL was - depending on the little awards in the 1957 stile - a well decorated WW2 veteran...







      With the tunic (and the trouser) came the greatcoat made of the thick whool fabric..





      Jens
      Wonderful pictures of these great examples of German tradition in the bundeswehr.

      But while I have seen feldgrau still in use today in the bundeswehr I cannot help but wonder as well...
      Might you or anyone know if the great coat in the picture which is made of thick wool fabric is still in use by the bundeswehr to this day and if it is do you know which groups of the bundeswehr use them?

      My thanks.

      Comment

        #4
        Originally posted by Axel View Post
        Wonderful pictures of these great examples of German tradition in the bundeswehr.

        But while I have seen feldgrau still in use today in the bundeswehr I cannot help but wonder as well...
        Might you or anyone know if the great coat in the picture which is made of thick wool fabric is still in use by the bundeswehr to this day and if it is do you know which groups of the bundeswehr use them?

        My thanks.
        Such dark grey greatcoat is issue to all Heer and Zentraler Sanitätsdienst personel in Bundeswehr as part of Dienstanzug. If you mean specific one in photo, it is for Artillerietruppen. I think the wool quality is probably not as good today but they do still wear them.

        By the way Bundeswehr wear nothing in "feldgrau."

        regards
        Klaus

        Comment

          #5
          Originally posted by Klaus1989 View Post
          Such dark grey greatcoat is issue to all Heer and Zentraler Sanitätsdienst personel in Bundeswehr as part of Dienstanzug. If you mean specific one in photo, it is for Artillerietruppen. I think the wool quality is probably not as good today but they do still wear them.

          By the way Bundeswehr wear nothing in "feldgrau."

          regards
          Klaus
          Thank you, for I would love to keep such a coat once I perform my service in the bundeswehr. ^^

          Really? Why no feldgrau? Not even the tunic of the man on the left?:

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Axel View Post
            Really? Why no feldgrau? Not even the tunic of the man on the left?:
            It is only grey (officially "grau"). Some are darker grey than others (especially older Bw jackets). Feldgrau is slight green-grey (compare with WW2 uniforms and you see different). Bw uniforms have no green tint in them.

            regards
            Klaus
            Last edited by Klaus1989; 10-25-2009, 09:33 PM.

            Comment

              #7
              Originally posted by Klaus1989 View Post
              It is only grey (officially "grau"). Some are darker grey than others (especially different among Generale). Feldgrau is slight green-grey (compare with WW2 uniforms and you see different). Bw uniforms have no green tint in them.

              regards
              Klaus
              Hmmm...I wonder why the feldgrau was phased out (assuming it is not to do with post-war Nazi trama) for it was quite popular for a while in Germany and I assumed it was either kept out of the public eye for a bit eventually making a comeback (obviously steingrau is much more known) or still in use as a tradition by some.

              I truly hope the bundeswehr adopts more prussian influences once 100 years has passed since the second world war...what do you think? Do you notice more of a downgrade in German military traditions or a revitalization eversince the end of the war?

              Comment

                #8
                Feldgrau was not phased out - it disappeared with the Wehrmacht. The closest colour is "graugrün" of old BGS uniforms, but it is has more dark green than feldgrau. The BGS was interesting mixture of old German military and police traditions with some new ideas.

                I try not to give opinion on topics like this, but the East German Nationale Volksarmee retained much more "Prussian tradition" than Bundeswehr. I doubt Bundesregierung or most people has much interest in military tradition anymore. I will say I like the Bergmützen better than berets...

                regards
                Klaus

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Klaus1989 View Post
                  Feldgrau was not phased out - it disappeared with the Wehrmacht. The closest colour is "graugrün" of old BGS uniforms, but it is has more dark green than feldgrau. The BGS was interesting mixture of old German military and police traditions with some new ideas.

                  I try not to give opinion on topics like this, but the East German Nationale Volksarmee retained much more "Prussian tradition" than Bundeswehr. I doubt Bundesregierung or most people has much interest in military tradition anymore. I will say I like the Bergmützen better than berets...

                  regards
                  Klaus
                  Hmmm I see...I do love the BGS and how they were...very traditional up until the end and most people did not even know that they were considered to be a seperate militia from the bundeswehr in their own right.

                  Yes the NVA was VERY pussian indeed, but I always like to think our bundeswehr had a few things that the NVA did not have in terms of prussianization.
                  But maybe I might rekindle this debate in Germany one day over tradition...it would give me great honor even if there was nothing revived to know that this was at least remembered...I mean if I see the local police and fire departments sporting prussian traditions and influences in their parading then why can our military not?
                  But thank you greatly for your input. I highly appreciate it

                  Comment

                    #10
                    I don`t know if this is the real cause, but the change in colour from dark grey to the (sometimes very) light grey is another try to give the BW uniform a less uniform look... especially in the 60ies and 70ies fashion designers where in charge to give the BW a fresh and civil look as part of the "Staatsbürger in Uniform" -concept ... . Dark clothing always looks a bit "formal", also it could be too traditional... as it can be mistaken for fieldgrey...

                    Jens

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Asbjoern View Post
                      I don`t know if this is the real cause, but the change in colour from dark grey to the (sometimes very) light grey is another try to give the BW uniform a less uniform look... especially in the 60ies and 70ies fashion designers where in charge to give the BW a fresh and civil look as part of the "Staatsbürger in Uniform" -concept ... . Dark clothing always looks a bit "formal", also it could be too traditional... as it can be mistaken for fieldgrey...

                      Jens
                      But why would grey be too uniform, traditional, or formal? This is nonsense, and in my eyes is the blatant suppresion of prussianization in Germany today through misguidance and ignorance is quite an atrocity...
                      If the NVA was allowed to be prussianized then why isnt the bundeswehr allowed to be the same?

                      But the current manufacturer of Bundeswehr uniforms is LH Bundeswehr Bekleidungsgesellschaft. But they are only under conract until 2013 I believe...

                      By the way, who would one speak to about possibly resurrecting old-traditions and designing uniforms/reinstating older variants with more prussian influence?
                      Is the the company which supplies the bundeswehr with it's uniforms in charge of this? Or do they receive orders from someone else like the minister of defence or even the inspector general?
                      I would greatly appreciate it if you knew ^_^

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Axel View Post
                        Thank you, for I would love to keep such a coat once I perform my service in the bundeswehr. ^^

                        Really? Why no feldgrau? Not even the tunic of the man on the left?:

                        Hello Gentlemen,

                        Have you ever seen anything quite as ugly as a beret.

                        I mean, really, it must be the most unflattering item of male head adornment ever devised.

                        During my time with the ADF, we started wearing these things as items of both field and service dress. I looked like a cream puff with a cherry on the top!

                        Why, oh why does the Bundeswehr think this is such a 'leap forward'.

                        Give me a bergmutze or schirmutze any day...........

                        Cheers,

                        Hugh

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Axel View Post
                          ... By the way, who would one speak to about possibly resurrecting old-traditions and designing uniforms/reinstating older variants with more prussian influence?
                          Is the the company which supplies the bundeswehr with it's uniforms in charge of this? Or do they receive orders from someone else like the minister of defence or even the inspector general?
                          I would greatly appreciate it if you knew ^_^
                          Although prussian tradition is not such a no-no as later parts of history there is no chance for more influence of such kind of tradition in the BW as many people think that the prussian militarism was one of the roots for later nationalism ... Do you remember last years diskussion on a medal of honour ?
                          The Iron cross was invented in the early 19th century but could not be reinvented as the nazis used it as award also...

                          The LHD is - to my knowledge - not in charge to design anything. They are just responsible for the purchase of defined goods and the complete logistics on the clothing sector. A new stile of uniform only is possible if the government wants it, and, if you look on the newest creations for Hamburg police for example, a new stile would be more fashioned and not more traditional ! If there is any tradion for the BW it has to come from BRD times...

                          @Hugh - im 100% with you ! Even the old sidecap looks better! But maybe its also a kind of "non-tradition" as the beret replaced all these WH stile headgear as sidecap and M43 stile filedcap... but be shure - even many active BW soldieres dislike these hats . Especially the red version is called "Notaus-Knopf" (emergency shutdown buzzer)


                          Jens

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Hugh Zillmann View Post
                            Hello Gentlemen,

                            Have you ever seen anything quite as ugly as a beret.

                            I mean, really, it must be the most unflattering item of male head adornment ever devised.

                            During my time with the ADF, we started wearing these things as items of both field and service dress. I looked like a cream puff with a cherry on the top!

                            Why, oh why does the Bundeswehr think this is such a 'leap forward'.

                            Give me a bergmutze or schirmutze any day...........

                            Cheers,

                            Hugh
                            Yes indeed, the year 1971 was one of the biggest downfalls of the bundeswehr and tradition in it's entire history...
                            All things traditional were downgraded to hell.....

                            I would sooner wear this than a beret!!! http://www.erstes-garderegiment.de/B...Bild%20330.htm

                            And yes this was actually done by the wachbatallion to my great surprise!!!

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Asbjoern View Post
                              Although prussian tradition is not such a no-no as later parts of history there is no chance for more influence of such kind of tradition in the BW as many people think that the prussian militarism was one of the roots for later nationalism ... Do you remember last years diskussion on a medal of honour ?
                              The Iron cross was invented in the early 19th century but could not be reinvented as the nazis used it as award also...

                              The LHD is - to my knowledge - not in charge to design anything. They are just responsible for the purchase of defined goods and the complete logistics on the clothing sector. A new stile of uniform only is possible if the government wants it, and, if you look on the newest creations for Hamburg police for example, a new stile would be more fashioned and not more traditional ! If there is any tradion for the BW it has to come from BRD times...

                              @Hugh - im 100% with you ! Even the old sidecap looks better! But maybe its also a kind of "non-tradition" as the beret replaced all these WH stile headgear as sidecap and M43 stile filedcap... but be shure - even many active BW soldieres dislike these hats . Especially the red version is called "Notaus-Knopf" (emergency shutdown buzzer)


                              Jens
                              Yes but you must also remeber that the Iron Cross always was awarded ONLY when Germany was in a war with another country like France, Austria, Denmark, etc.
                              But during events like the boxer rebellion in China, the iron cross was not awarded and that rebellion is very similar to the present day situation with Germany in Afghanistan.
                              In other words: If there is no war in directly defending Germany, then no iron cross.....even though many claim it is because of its continual misuse under the nazis. One must also remember the petition for the iron cross gained over 5000 signatures. Eventually, if the people want something they will get it and if the iron cross was such a problem in symbolizing nazism then its continual influene in the bundeswehr on flags, vehicles, patches, etc would not be allowed at all today. I believe one day it will eventually have to be reinstated in Germany since this is no longer only West-Germany, but Germany as a country.

                              And afterall, remember this when the bundeswehr was first formed in 1955?:

                              Oh I see, so the LHD are under orders from the government...Must the ENTIRE government agree to reinstate an old uniform or tradition? Or only members involved in the defense aspect of Germany? Because I would even consider meeting with the defense minister or inspector general about the subject if this would be necessary for something to be done...since I have put a lot of research into this subject.
                              Sorry for these many questions by the way...it is a very important goal in my life to present my findings and claims for the bundeswehr one day.
                              Last edited by Axel; 10-27-2009, 07:42 PM.

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