Announcement

**Klaus1989** · 09-30-2009, 06:48 PM

Allen,
I did not say it was Sturm - I said helmet cover was probably Sturm. The Knochensack is possibly earlier fake. Fakes can be well made. I am not entirely convinced by it because BGS is not documented to use such item. With no FJ type troops until GSG9, why would they?

EDIT:
Here is photo from hkpro.com website. I assume you mean this? Some ugly camo! Not sure what it is, but lower pocket like 1970s US jungle jacket.

regards
Klaus

**allen** · 09-30-2009, 08:37 PM

Tarnung, alles tarnung...

Yes Klaus, you're quite right about the BGS' lack of paratroops, but can we completely rule out Bundeswehr use of sumpfmuster?

Yep, that's the camo in the picture, to each his own, to me that's ultra cool and sumpfmuster is ugly...

**sgtmonroe** · 10-01-2009, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post

The only picture of this uniform that I've seen being worn by a Bundeswehr soldier is the one seen below from "Symbole und Zeremoniell" by Hans-Peter Stein.

Here is another image from the same photo session [23 July 1955] showing the experimental camouflage uniform. The photo is originally captioned:

"Men Modelling German Military Uniforms
Original caption: Bonn: New uniforms for German army. Uniforms for members of the new German Republic's Armed Forces are modelled here for the first time after their approval by Federal President Theodor Heuss. Left to right in the back row are: Dress uniform for Army and Air Force noncoms; dress uniform for Army and Air Force officers; Dress uniform for Naval officers; Dress uniform for sailors; Dress uniform for Naval Warrant officers; and Fatigue uniform for Army and Air Force enlisted men. Front row: camouflaged battle fatigues of waterproof cotton in grey, black, green and red design; and working uniform (right), for Army and Air Force enlisted men."

**Asbjoern** · 10-01-2009, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by allen View Post

... but can we completely rule out Bundeswehr use of sumpfmuster?

.

Clearly yes if we speak of regulary accepted stuff !! Beside the splinter-camoed things only the tent in the amöbentarn are regular BW items. Even the helmet covers are - if authentic - missused hoods of the splinterjacket or pouches (hoods) from the tent. Beside that there may be some experimental stuff from the 50ies and even more from the 70ies and 80ies. The change to the modern "Flecktarn" was prepared by years of different official trials with several different camoshemes (Truppenversuche, TrVers). During this time also some companies tried to convince the BW to buy privately designed camoshemes by producing several standart BW items in these designs. Afterwards some of these privately made TrVers stuff entered market, nowadays confusing collectors

... many of this items can - as far as they have a label with an NSN on it- identified as the NSN originally belongs to a standart olive green version of the special item. Also some fantasy stuff entered market as the well known field-caps in Amöbentarn camo. They are made very well, maybe of original fabric, but allways a little different from the official BW fieldcap (Herringbone and moleskin)
So far " the state of art" in researching BW camo ...

Regards,

Jens

**Gordon Craig** · 10-01-2009, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by sgtmonroe View Post

Here is another image from the same photo session [23 July 1955] showing the experimental camouflage uniform. The photo is originally captioned:

"Men Modelling German Military Uniforms
Original caption: Bonn: New uniforms for German army. Uniforms for members of the new German Republic's Armed Forces are modelled here for the first time after their approval by Federal President Theodor Heuss. Left to right in the back row are: Dress uniform for Army and Air Force noncoms; dress uniform for Army and Air Force officers; Dress uniform for Naval officers; Dress uniform for sailors; Dress uniform for Naval Warrant officers; and Fatigue uniform for Army and Air Force enlisted men. Front row: camouflaged battle fatigues of waterproof cotton in grey, black, green and red design; and working uniform (right), for Army and Air Force enlisted men."

Gents,

I'm getting a little confused with all the back and forth. It would seem that other than this photo of the "combat uniform" and the fact that it was authorized there is no evidence that it was actually produced and worn. We can feel confident that more than one uniform was produced as there would certainly have been some Truppenversuch before it was approved. Unless, of course, this was totally a political decision to adopt all of these uniforms and the camouflage one was never actually produced or issued by the armed forces. We can however, be sure that other countries used camouflage uniforms based on this final WWII Wehrmacht design. The Swiss unifrms are well know and would never be mistaken for a BW uniform but here is a picture of a Czech early post war para coveralls from my collection that could cause confusion.

Regards,

Gordon

Attached Files

DSCF3624.jpg (71.8 KB, 383 views)

**Gordon Craig** · 10-01-2009, 03:33 PM

A close up of the Czech para badge which gives a better view of this camo pattern.

Attached Files

DSCF3625.jpg (117.9 KB, 386 views)

**panzerwerk** · 10-01-2009, 04:22 PM

Fantastic set of Coveralls Gordon , Thanks for showing them !!

**allen** · 10-01-2009, 09:02 PM

Czech Leibermuster?

Wow, Czech Leibermuster, never knew it existed! Thanks for the pics.

Regarding the BW Leibermuster, I should think that's sufficient proof that there was a gray area between official issue and Truppenversuch items, things possibly unofficially issued on a limited basis (the US military is known for this, so why not other armies).

Perhaps Klaus is right, the sumpftarn knochensack could've been a well made fake and the dealer just didn't know, but I thought I'd put it out there to see if it struck a chord with anyone.

How about the "ersatz jungle leaf" camo in the HK pic? Anybody have any ideas? Maybe Asian stuff?

**Asbjoern** · 10-02-2009, 03:12 AM

Many details of the first years of the BW will remain in mysteric darkness ...

... it was a time of constant change, the first units where equipped with the stuff they brought over from BGS or wich could be aquired in a very short time. Some itams only seem to be invented in limited scale as they where availible in a short time, some equipmant - even vehicles - where used in a mixture of normal service and Truppenversuch and so on.... and nobody cared for a proper documentation of this as no one thought that will be of any interest in the future!!!. The WTS maybe foundet in the 60ies, but they didn`t focus on this part of developement - their main interest is on technical aspects of weapon systems. Even in the late 80ies, as the department responsible for the procurement of uniforms (etc) of the BWB in Koblenz was reorganized their collection of samples was sold via Vebeg and not transferred to the WTS ... I know the guys who cleared the place ...

Maybe BWB kept the old documentation and the contracts...but the storing rooms for this stuff would have been in the basements which where flooded by the mosel river in 1993

... I know that they where flooded as I grew up in Koblenz... .

Regards,
Jens

**Collectinsteve** · 02-17-2010, 01:31 AM

I can assure you guys that the FJ uniform in the original poster's picture is real. I have one in my collection

I refer to this stuff as "Broad Splinter".

Broad Splinter was produced in 1957 and was definitely experimental and definitely worn by FJ. The one I have came from a US Army vet who traded it with a FJ in 1964. The uniform had been in continuous use since 1957, and oh man does it show! Here is a picture of the jacket.

It shares some similarities to the Narrow Splinter FJ uniform, but it is distinctly different.

An "infantry" version of Broad Splinter was also produced in 1957. It is cut identically to the standard Narrow Splinter jackets that are easily, though expensively, obtained on eBay these days. However, the colors of the shapes are reversed from the FJ uniform! I expect trousers were also made in the standard infantry cut, but I have only seen the jacket and hood one time (and it cost me plenty!).

From my research the Germans started to doubt the wisdom of having a near identical copy of the old Wehrmacht Splinter pattern so they experimented with something that had traditional roots without being a literal copy. This was abandoned with the general decision, in 1958 IIRC, to no longer cloth soldiers in camouflage at all. Cost and uncomfortableness were cited as the reasons for dropping it, but it has always lingered that politics was also a significant factor.

The Germans produced a very small number of Splittertarn (Narrow Splinter) in special cuts for Gebirgs and Luftlande troops. I also have what is probably an experimental Schneetarn (Snow Camo) over top with Broad Splinter strokes on one side and pure white on the other. The cut is similar to the 1st Model reversible Schneetarn uniform, but not identical. I think only one batch of each was ever produced. I have one of each of these three items.

As far as I know all Splittertarn items were made between 1956 and 1957 only, though possibly some were made in very late 1955. They were made in either a green base or blue base.

As for the Leibermuster uniform, that was an experimental uniform which was supposed to be the first combat uniform of the newly formed Bundeswehr. It was a project started before the BW existed and was quickly passed over after its creation. It was based on the EVG (Europäschen Vereidigungs Gemeinschaft) model, which was a standardized uniform proposed for the EVG (the predecessor to NATO which never really got off the ground). The few examples I've seen were all produced in the final months of 1954. I have a jacket and trousers.

The EVG uniform pattern was later partially adopted by France (which made the initial design), Belgium, Germany (both Leibermuster and Splittertarn), Switzerland, and Spain. Various features and the the thin canvas cloth are what ties these together. Only Spain used it for any significant length of time, though the Swiss continued using it into the 1980s in a thick cotton starting in 1963 or there abouts.

Steve

**Klaus1989** · 02-17-2010, 12:23 PM

Steve,
no one debated if FJ uniform in first post was real. Everyone know that. The debate was over sumpftarn Knochensack and who used them. The sumpftarn Knochensack is definite fake. Thanks for details about Leibermuster though. That explains it.

Nice uniforms btw. Your early West German collection is amazing! Where do you find these?

regards
Klaus

**Collectinsteve** · 02-17-2010, 01:39 PM

Hi Klaus,

Ah, my bad. It was late and I rushed reading the follow ups. As far as I know there has never been a BW issue, or even experimental, "bone sack".

I have pieced my collection together through the usual combination of luck, determination, and spending far too much money

My collection of camouflage items is very good (I have examples of all TruVsu 76, for example) and my non-camo stuff is not bad either. I just wish I could stumble upon a few items in particular.

Steve

**screensize** · 08-13-2010, 06:22 PM

Sorry to dig out this old thread, but does anyone know if Amobentarn helmet covers were officially issued?

I got these items, and one of them (last one) looks like a helmet cover, with a round hole on the left side. I have no idea what purpose this hole has.

Regards,
Chris

Btw. early BW canteen just sold today for 8 Euro. Wish I had read this thread earlier....

**Collectinsteve** · 08-13-2010, 10:09 PM

Hi Chris,

"Officially", I think the answer is no. Were they commonly used? Yes. Even into the 1970s and no doubt into the 1980s. They were all made from shelter halves, not purpose made from scratch.

That helmet cover of yours is quite interesting. Usually a hole like that is for an earphone. What's odd is there isn't one on the other side to match. I'm not that familiar with BW tanker helmets of the 1960s, but the early ones (1950s) were based on the US WW2 "football" type helmet. At least very early ones were. Then there was brown wool beret over a hard skull cap used for most of the 1960s. Sometime in the 1970s or 1980s they went to a padded "Russian" style. I don't know if they used something else.

Besides an armored crew helmet, I can't think of what this might go to.

Steve

**Gordon Craig** · 08-13-2010, 11:18 PM

Screensize,

Everything pictured in your post was officially made in this camo except for helmet covers. As Steve says, they were made from shelter quarters. The helmet cover you post is certainly of an unusual shape but I don't think that it would have been used on any of the helmets Steve mentioned. There is another helmet that was used by the BW that is not often seen that may match your cover. Unfortunately, I am a long way from home at the present and can not post a picture of one. I'll try and remember to post a picture once I get at the end of the month.

Regards,

Gordon

Announcement

Anyone have a source for these uniform items?

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread