TR-era awards on Bunderwehr Uniforms

[SprogCollector]

While I'm familiar with the range of denazified awards available to former members of the Wehrmacht serving in the Bundeswehr, I'm a little confused about what they could and could not wear.

Most prior service BW uniforms have ribbons denoting former TR awards. In the post on naval uniforms, there is a photo of a Bundesmarine Admiral wearing what appears to be court-mounted medals -- one of which appears to be the EK2. There's possibly an EK1 worn on the lower left breast.

My question is this: when were these full sized medals okay to wear? For example, I've not seen a photo of anyone wearing the 1957 EK1 on their service uniform. Certainly not many wearing Knights Crosses on a daily basis.

In the below photo, would one expect to see Colonel Bauer wearing these medals during normal duty - i.e. not a formal portrait? If the court-mounted EK2 and Ostfront medal were replaced by their respective ribbons (or ribbons attached via the second button hole), this arrangement would be the same as worn by the Wehrmacht.

[SCHUPO]

You bring up a good point. Under what circumstances was it appropriate to wear decorations in the Bundeswehr?

I have seen West German ribbon bars (Spange) with so-called 1957 NS Zeit awards such as the Iron Cross, Russian Front, Wound Badge, etc. I don't know if these were allowed on the active service uniform or not. It seems clear that the pin on badges and mounted medal bars could be worn for dress occasions, perhaps full dress or walking out dress. They could certainly be worn by retired veterans who retained the right to wear their uniform.

I too would like to know the regulations for wearing decorations in the BW.

[speedytop]

Hi,

"... wearing these [original] medals during normal duty ...?"

No, never.

"... Under what circumstances was it appropriate to wear [original] decorations in the Bundeswehr? ..."

Originals very seldom [ceremonial dress uniform], minis seldom [ordinary dress uniform].
But ribbon bars nearly always, this was and is normal and usual on the service uniform.

Text from "Taschenbuch für Wehrfragen 1959":

"Die große Ordensschnalle darf nur zum Ausgehanzug [dress uniform, later ceremonial dress uniform] getragen werden, und zwar
a) aus besonderen dienstlichen Anlässen auf Anordnung des Bundesministers für Verteidigung oder der von ihm beauftragten Stellen.
b) aus privatem Anlaß nach vorheriger Genhmigung des Bundesministers für Verteidigung oder der von ihm beauftragten Stellen."

"... on special state occasions or special privat occasions with the allowance of the minister or his commissioners."


Many foreigners think and believe, especially the collectors of the 1957 versions (!), that the soldiers wear their [original] decorations often.

No, very seldom!


SCHUPO:
"I don't know if these were allowed on the active service uniform or not"

It was and is allowed, to wear all the decorations based on the ZDV 37/10 (dress regulations), this one is from 1997:

http://www.pumakompanie.de/HTML_dat/...eien/37_10.pdf

Please see page 272 - 280.

Große Ordenschnalle = the decorations in original size
- Bild (picture) 551 on page 227

Kleine Ordensschnalle = miniatur decorations
- Bild 552 on page 227

Bandschnalle = ribbon bar
- Bild 553 on page 228

Dienstanzug:

http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a...DE/content.jsp

Gesellschaftsuniform
- only for NCO's and officers:

http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a...DE/content.jsp

Regards
Uwe

[SprogCollector]

HI Uwe,
As always, thanks for your very detailed reply!

Just so I'm clear: those TR veterans who chose to wear their wartime decorations nearly always wore then in ribbon form for their day-to-day uniforms. Here's a photograph of General Steinhoff with his service uniform:



One thing you wrote that surprised me -- and perhaps I just misunderstand the comment:
"Many foreigners think and believe, especially the collectors of the 1957 versions (!), that the soldiers wear their [original] decorations often."

By this, are you saying there are collectors who believe that TR-veterans were wearing their original (TR-era) awards??????? Or, do they believe these veterans were wearing their 57er awards on their day-to-day uniforms but in the manner worn by Colonel Bauer in my original post?

[speedytop]

No, with "originals" I mean the 1957 versions, because they are originals, based on the 1957 law and the regulations (Ordensgesetz and Bundesanzeiger):

http://www.ordensmuseum.de/Ordensjou...6Jan0857er.pdf

There are only very few originals, that could be worn as real war time originals, e.g. oak leaves and oak leaves with swords to the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross.

General Steinhoff could e.g. wear a 1957 version of the Knight's Cross and (his) original oak leaves with swords (or a copy of this decoration).

Everybody with the official allowance could wear the ribbon bar on the service dress, but nobody had to do it!

Colonel Bauer wore his original 1957 versions on the "Ausgehanzug", not on the "Dienstanzug", and it could be only once in his life for the photo.

Uwe

[SprogCollector]

Thanks Uwe! That's what I thought. If the wearing of full-sized 57er awards was allowed on the Dienstuniform, then we would have had ample evidence of at least some EK/RK recipients wearing them. As you mention, aside from studio portraits (or, I suspect, very formal occassions, these awards were unlikely to be worn)

Exactly correct on these awards being optional to wear. Note in this photo that Oberstleutnant Hartmann and Oberst Barkhorn have chosen to wear their full ribbons of 3. Reich awards while Oberstleutnant Graseman has chosen to wear none of his despite being highly decorated himself.

[SCHUPO]

Uwe,

Thank you for the clear description and quotation of the regulations. This answers several lingering questions for me.

[SprogCollector]

I found this photo online earlier today. While my first photo of this thread shows the wearer in a studio setting, this 1959 photo shows the commanding officer, FKpt Wolf, of the Schulfreggate Sheer coming aboard.

[RamJet]

I remember a pic of Admiral Ruge in a white uniform with his 57 KC, I believe it was taken when he accepted the first Fletcher class destroyer for the Federal German Navy in the US (!). I am not completely sure ... it was in a book I don't own.