BGS BundesGrenzSchutz

[michelwijnand]

The rain finally stopped, so I was able to put he mannequin outside for some photos, it's meant to be a late 60's - early 70's kit.

3rd type Sumpftarn summer jacket with Grenztruppjäger shoulderboards
Blue-grey Moleskin fabric summer pants
M53 (correct number?) helmet with camo net
Leather 2-prong belt
Y-straps
Leather G1 magazine pouches
Folding shovel in black leather carrier
Green breadbag
Blue-grey canteen
Mess tin with leather strap
Blue-grey Zeltbahn with 2 packstraps, these are WW2 ones, as stand-ins until the BGS ones arrive
Knobelbecher style boots

I forgot to hang the large pack behind it, guess I'll do that whenever I decide to make the Wachtmeister winter set.




Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

Look great! Your questions here paid off, because there is very little to correct on it. Only the messkit look kind of odd colour (is it mismatched Bw/PPBln?) and collar was almost always worn open. For 1970s, you can use blue shirt or green trikot one. And I know about the boot problem.

btw it is 2nd pattern jacket...

Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

Looking great!!

I agree with Klaus that the messkit should not have those two colors. I am also thinking the bag is probably not correct too. We discussed this earlier, I think?

The only other question I have is about the shovel. Maybe Klaus can provide a better answer than I have, but I'm not sure the paint color is correct. Aren't the BGS ones from this period more green than olive (which I think is BW)?

Steve

[michelwijnand]

Thanks guys, about the "wrong" parts, the messtin came from a WH reenactor here in Holland, who had been painting it over, but then bought a real ww2 one, this one's the tall model, with 3 pieces, and under the grey paint layer is the same color as the upper part, even on the back of it.

The shovel is the correct type that locks in many positions, with the star-shaped locking bolt, instead of the BW ones that are square, and lock in only 2 positions.
The paint almost matches the messtin's original paint.

And oops, thought it was a 3rd pattern jacket :P

I'll keep an eye out for an older color breadbag, and a shirt, in the meantime I kept the collar closed, as I couldn't find one yet.

These boots are a bit of an oddity. I recently got them, they have a lower toe than BW ones, nailed rather than sewn soles, and no toe-cap. They seem to match the profile of some of the boots in this photo. As you can see there are different shaped ones, the one in the middle being almost as lumpy as regular BW ones. I also notice slight differences in shape in other photos in the 60's and 70's at least.



And here are mine, they seem to be like the 2nd pair from the right.





Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

The only other question I have is about the shovel. Maybe Klaus can provide a better answer than I have, but I'm not sure the paint color is correct. Aren't the BGS ones from this period more green than olive (which I think is BW)?

Steve

correct, should be schwarzgrün. But not only colour, BGS model has blade, that lock at almost any angle (in contrast to Bw, which only lock at 90 and 180 degrees).

Strange boots, hard to say, because they were used by wide variety of civil and police organisations, so could be anything. Yes, some BGS boots have rounder toe, but is less common.

The green trikot shirts appear often on ebay.de, although not see any at moment.

Regards
Klaus

[michelwijnand]

I did just say this shovel is the one that locks in many positions

Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

ok, missed that. What markings are on it? Some Bepo units had olive Klappspaten. Not sure, if they were BGS or Bw pattern.

Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

I think the olive color is most likely Berlin Polizei. They used BGS style equipment, like most other Polizei forces, but they tended to use gray colored stuff as far as I know. As Klaus suggested, there might be markings that are helpful.

The shovel, boots, mess kit, water bottle, and breadbag underscore the problems of putting together a uniform for a specific BRD organization. So many organizations used identical items, except for color or an obscure feature. Which isn't necessarily consistent from year to year! The documentation of these differences also isn't very good.

Now, as for the "3rd Model Jacket". I apologize for that because I think I'm one of the guys that is responsible for this name. Many, many years ago I had one of the first websites documenting camouflage. It was called "Steve's Page 'O Camo". I think I started it in 1996 and it really took off in 1998 when I started expanding my collection *and* had time to document it. Although the focus was on the camouflage patterns only (not uniforms) I had a special section on BGS jackets instead of just documenting the patterns.

The purpose of this section was to correct the information that Petersen's book had about the different models. I documented a total of 5 jackets and identified them as:

First Model
Second Model (early)
Second Model (late)
Third Model (early)
Third Model (late)

For many years I thought the "First Model" was a rare early production version. Then I thought it was a trials piece. It was only in conversations here, in particular with Klaus, that the jacket was correctly identified as S-H Polizei, not BGS at all. Therefore, "First Model" doesn't exist The correct items are:

1st Model (early) - no arm pocket, no shoulder rank
1st Model (late) - same as above, but with shoulder rank. Early types were converted to have shoulder rank
2nd Model (early) - arm pocket without arc badge and with narrow loop for rank
2nd Model (late) - arm pocket with arc and wide loop for rank. Early types were converted to have arc badge

There is also a factory specific 2nd Model (early) produced in 1967. It has a different style snap for the arm pocket, but otherwise is identical to other jackets.

There are other very minor production differences that exist, but the above is the primary list.

Steve

[michelwijnand]

Oh ok thanks, when you say the S-H police type, do you mean the one with a single D-ring on the left back side?

And the 1967 jacket you mean is with the lift-the-dot style button, right? Because that's what mine is. It also doesn't show well in my photo, but there's no arc badge, and no proof of it having been there. I had the eagle one attached by a local shop, but the sewing pattern is wrong, so I left without paying (I explicitely told him to do it by a photo I showed him), and I have to reattach it correctly.

Sadly, there's no useful markings on the shovel, just the factory logo. I think the BePo ones were marked with PPBtln or something like that?



Here's the locking bolt.



The carrier is also nearly sterile, only a makersmark in an oval (unreadable), and a year that seems to be 1960.

Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

Probably for Bepo (Schleswig-Holstein?), some states not mark their equipment much. Only West Berlin shovels were stamped PPBln under the Ideal logo, but were olive colour (not blue grey like would expect). Beside different colour, BGS is usually marked "BGS" or "BUND".

Regards
Klaus

[igordad]

Good day to all.
My name is Igor and I am from Ukraine.
I have this jacket in stock.
Can you help me with the definition?
There are only a tag in the inside pocket.
If you need more photos, I can do.
Thank you.

[Guardian 5]

Gents,

I just scored this photo and will post blow-ups when the original arrives.

One would be hard-pressed to distinguish the last guys in the front rank from c.1945 Wehrmacht with just a casual glance.

It's also interesting to note the green canvas gunner's pouch worn by the MG42 gunner; re-purposed flare gun ammo pouch?

Thanks,
TJ

[Klaus1989]

TJ,
nice photo! I have yet to see one of these pouches in person. Look like flare pouches with belt loops and always worn by MG gunners. Not sure, if made that way or not. I have 3 flare pouches with slight variations, but none have belt loops.

Regards
Klaus

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

The pouch worn by the gunner would be, as you are aware, a spare parts/cleaning kit. If memory serves me right, there was a canvas spare parts/cleaning kit us by the Wehrmacht during the late war years. I'll see if I can find a picture of one.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

Excellent picture! Funny, my eye was drawn to the MG gunner's pouch as well. I agree with Klaus that it doesn't seem to be a flare pouch. It is also strange to see what appears to be two separate flaps over two separate cells. That is very odd as German MG gunners pouches have always, I think, had a single flap. Also, it looks to be the wrong shape/size for MG accessories. Too large and long (top/bottom).

Steve