BGS BundesGrenzSchutz

[austromunga]

Hi guys
Thanks for the info and pointers!!! I have posted a few pics of the breadbag and canteen...these are unissued and came as a set from a dealer in Germany... could well be THW as the date would seem to be 88' !!!! if so they will serve as stop gaps until the correct items can be obtained.... I have also removed the removable hood cover and placed it in the correct place on the jacket... (no buttons for this on my jacket...did the late type not have provision for the hood!!??) and I have removed the strap from the breadbag... the helmet is now dressed in just the BGS helmet net... oh and an OPFOR band!!!











thanks again for the advice!!!! and I hope to eventually complete my display!!!

[michelwijnand]

I thought the grey stuff could have been BePo?

Anyway, I've seen some green BGS breadbags for sale, and they have black trim around the flap, unlike most I see. Is that legit? Maybe from a certain era?

And can anyone enlighten me with some knowledge about the boots, about for example:
What are the differences from BGS boots, in comparison with BW boots?
I have many reference photos, but none show any useful detail like the sole pattern, or the details of the top, with the strap and all.

Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

austromunga,
yes, these look like they could be THW, BGS in late 80s used moss green fieldgear, which was only rarely issued for occasional exercises. Your helmet is unfortunately painted in this colour, which really appear after 1977 or 78 at time camo jackets are phased out. Manöverband should be worn over the net btw.

And that is correct, no hood for 2nd model jackets. The hood was only feature of first model. The 2nd model is introduced around 1967/68.

Michel,
not bepo gear, would not be marked BUND. No Bepo used grey colour in 1980s anymore, if they even were still issued fieldgear. The breadbag with black leather trim is last model, used late 70s-80s.

BGS boots have narrower pointed toe than Bw (which is rounded), otherwise very similar. Usually no toe plates. Not always appear to be true for 1950s.

Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

Based on color and date, the breadbag, canteen, and mess kit are all THW. As far as I know, they are the only agency using this sort of equipment in this color by the 1980s. Even prior to 1980s my guess would be THW.

As Klaus said, definitely no hood on the 2nd model jacket (1967-1975). Plus, if it was removed from a parka then it would be wrong anyway.

Steve

[michelwijnand]

Oops, my brain was asleep, didn't look at it being 1988 dated :P

And thanks about the other infos, I'll be sure to get the trim-less breadbag for my kit. I'm aving a bit of difficulty with finding items like lower rank (Jäger) shoulderboards, and for any boots. All I see are of the BW variations, with several different sole patterns.
Did the BGS ones have the same patterns?
I have a few pics in which there are toe plates worn like you say, a bit of an anomaly

[Klaus1989]

Grenzjäger ranks shoulderboards are very hard to find. Lowest commonly sold one is Wachtmeister it seem. And earlier styles even rarer...

The boots have standard Continental soles like Bundeswehr. Only the very early 50s ankle boots have different soles. The other soles you describe are probably one of several models of Seestiefel used by naval units.

Auction ended, but photos should give idea for your timeframe. I still look for pair of 50s Knobelbecher, but it appear the shape difference was less then.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/BGS-Stiefel-S...p2047675.l2557

Regards
Klaus

[michelwijnand]

Thanks, now I have some good reference to go of.

And the soles I mean are old wavy pattern looking ones, and the same pattern as the later brown/black BW laced boots.

I've seen a few Wachtmeister ones yes, no Jäger whatsoever.
Wachtmeister used different field gear than Jäger I believe, and my gear is completely regular low-rank field kit.

In the meanwhile, I believe my panta have just arrived at my home, I'll get to umpack it when I get back home!

Cheers,
Michel

[michelwijnand]

Pants are here, I think it's the number 1 pants that Steve mentioned in my Eastern block uniforms thread, as it's cotton and looks 100% copied from Sumpftarn ones I have pics of. The pics show the color a slight bit different though.





I also bought this belt today, and this holster which I don't think was used in BGS, but was easy to photograph things togeter. Probably it's BW or police I guess?
Also an NVA helmet net irrelevant to this thread, I put it on my M60-85 helmet to make it look like some used post-unification.




Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

it is correct, Wachtmeister and higher would normally serve as Gruppenführer, so gear would usually be different in field. P1 holster was used by BGS in late 60s-70s, but would not normally be carried by Grenzjäger in field exercises (although all ranks were issued pistols, not always worn). Astra 600 was phased out by this time. Trousers are correct for summer, Steve mentioned wool version too, which were worn with parka.

For caps, the piped Bergmütze in coarse Trikot (with or without fake flaps) and summer or winter Schiffchen were worn during this timeframe. Sumpftarn cap disappear.

Regards
Klaus

[michelwijnand]

Thanks, but I decided it's better to make it a summer display.
I'm re-reading lots of pages of this thread, and as it turns out my parka is the later type with cost-reducing features, so too late for it's intended purpose.

The only holsters I see in use are of another type though, with the strap closing to the bottom, and the magpouch at the side instead of the front.

While I do already have a helmet for this, I'll look into the cap though

Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

For summer display would go with Bergmütze or summer Schiffchen then. Former is more common in photos, but harder to find, especially in larger sizes.

The only holsters I see in use are of another type though, with the strap closing to the bottom, and the magpouch at the side instead of the front.

The holster you refer to is for Astra 600 and P210. These were phased out beginning in late 1960s. P38/P1 was in service with BGS since 1963/64 and used same holster as Bundeswehr. Only difference is markings on back. There is even brown version for Meister and officers (Bw had only black). Many photos in this thread focus on early years and so show Astra holsters.

1974:


earlier photo from mid-60s:


Regards
Klaus

[Collectinsteve]

I'm glad you won the trousers, Michel. There was quite a fight for them. You are also lucky to have found one so quickly. These are not seen very often.

This is the second variation. The 1962-1964 timeframe were almost identical copies of Sumpftarn trousers. The 1965 type has a few minor differences, the biggest being the integrated belt.

For summer headgear I agree with Klaus that the best one to go for is a Bergmütze. You can "cheat" by using one from earlier years because outwardly they look the same.

You say you have a later model parka with cost saving features on it. I don't remember when they switched production, but IIRC it was 1968 or perhaps 1969. Which means if you are portraying 1970 and beyond you should be fine with the second type parka.

Steve

[Klaus1989]

For summer headgear I agree with Klaus that the best one to go for is a Bergmütze. You can "cheat" by using one from earlier years because outwardly they look the same.

He is probably more likely to find a later Bergmütze from his timeframe! Most for sale on ebay are dated 1970, less often 1966. Earliest seen yet for sale was 1964-dated.

BGS switched back and forth between fake and functional flaps over time, so both could be seen by 1970s - fake flaps first appear with new uniforms 1960/61, then bring back functional flaps in mid 60s, before reintroduction of fake flaps again 1970. The 1950s version used functional flaps and was rough wool instead of coarse Trikot used from 1960/61 on.

Regards
Klaus

[michelwijnand]

Thanks for the clarification about the holster, I only remembered seeing them called BW everywhere.

And thanks Collectinsteve, when I saw the trousers I knew I had to either get them or wait a long time for the next, and I've already waited too long with fixing my BGS kit up!
I also think I have bought the summercap you both mention, but I'll wait for it to arrive to inspect the color and features better. It's a very small size, but I won't fit the rest of the uniform for a photo, so it's gonna go on a mannequin anyway.
A shovel, and breadbag are also on the way, and I already got a messtin a few days ago, tall type, may have been reissued by police or whatever, since there's the same color grey over a part of it, covering the correct BGS color.

As of now, I only need to get some shoulderboards, boots, and enough straps to put the tent on the belt. Were these rolled to the same width as in WW2?

Cheers,
Michel

[Klaus1989]

I also think I have bought the summercap you both mention, but I'll wait for it to arrive to inspect the color and features better. It's a very small size, but I won't fit the rest of the uniform for a photo, so it's gonna go on a mannequin anyway.
A shovel, and breadbag are also on the way, and I already got a messtin a few days ago, tall type, may have been reissued by police or whatever, since there's the same color grey over a part of it, covering the correct BGS color.

As of now, I only need to get some shoulderboards, boots, and enough straps to put the tent on the belt. Were these rolled to the same width as in WW2?

Cheers,
Michel

Summer cap? You mean the summer Schiffchen, or the Bergmütze? The Bergmütze is not a summer cap, although it could be worn all year. Photo would help id.

Roll is similar to WW2, but not exact. Need 2 straps for Zeltbahn, should be rolled to 28 cm wide (which can be hard to do) to fit width of breadbag. Also note, that the canteen and messkit on breadbag are reversed from usual WW2 method - canteen left, messkit right.

Regards
Klaus