Is this a legit Versuchshelm?

[U-96]

It seems OK to me but I just started buying some West-German steel so not an expert at all. The only thing that seems a bit off are the rivets. Shouldn't they be like on WW2 models?

Thanks for looking.


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[Collectinsteve]

I noticed the liner bolts too! Very curious. Other than that, it looks correct.

Steve

[U-96]

I hope somone can shed some light on this.

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[Collectinsteve]

Can you take a closeup picture of the one with the paint flaked off of it?

The WW2 type that is correct for this helmet has one large hole in the middle and two small holes in the rim. This allows a tool with matching "male" parts so that the bolt head can be rotated and tightened to the lug on the other side. Other TrVsu helmets had a standard single slot for a screwdriver type tool. BGS GSG-9 helmets use that type as well.

What is very peculiar about these bolts is without the two smaller holes... how can it be reliably and easily tightened with nothing holding the head securely? So for me it isn't so much as "this doesn't look correct for this helmet" as it is "this doesn't look correct for any helmet".

Is there any signs of the helmet being repainted?

Steve

[U-96]

I'll post some pics tomorrow

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[peregrinvs]

What is very peculiar about these bolts is without the two smaller holes... how can it be reliably and easily tightened with nothing holding the head securely? So for me it isn't so much as "this doesn't look correct for this helmet" as it is "this doesn't look correct for any helmet".

Well there is the theory that these helmets are an early reenactor product: an M38 lookalike based on the existing GSG-9 helmet shell design. I own one of these helmets and I have yet to pin down it’s origin to my satisfaction.

[U-96]

I hope it is worth the money... Hmmm

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[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

I would say this is a repro M38 helmet. Only two types of bolts were used on the post war trial helmets in the shape of the M38. One with the two small holes that uses a special tool to tighten them (see photo) and the other uses a slot similar to what you would find on on screw head for use with a flat bladed screw driver. Also, look at the rim of the helmet. (see photo for comparison) Very poorly finished. The chin strap also looks off to me as well. I would not in spend any money on this helmet.

Regards,

Gordon

[U-96]

If this is true, that would be a bummer.
Didn't know they would even bother to fake even these.
Well lesson learned... No alcohol while browsing ebay and stop collecting again.

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[Collectinsteve]

When I look at a helmet of this type I use the liner as the first pass/fail test. The WW2 type has consistently sized holes in the leather, the BW helmet has two distinct sizes. As far as I can remember I have not seen any other liner like it, including the dozens of different WW2 knock offs.

There is also no signs of fake WW2 markings on the liner, which is pretty much a given for something trying to be WW2 Third Reich.

Since the helmet has the correct BW liner, it passes the first test.

Next, I look at the other details. It can get murky quick. Did someone put together a helmet from some legitimate and some reproduction pieces? We have a currently active thread where someone is trying to rebuild a GSG-9 helmet, for example. The person doing it is very concerned about doing things right, but not everybody does or is as concerned about details.

Other things that are often wrong with other helmets that look right to me...

Crimped edge
Paint color


On the face of it, it is unlikely that someone fitted an original BW liner into the matching sized reproduction shell that they then repainted to BW color. First of all, if one had a repro shell they would likely have the repro liner. Second, why screw up the paint color? So it seems the shell is original too. I'm not bothered by the dents in the edging as Gordon is, though it does catch my eye.

There's nothing overtly wrong with the straps as far as I can see, though I don't have one of mine in front of me at the moment (I have two). A detail picture of the underside of the male side of the snap (shows the maker's mark) would be helpful.

Sooooo... for me the only red flag is the bolt heads. It is a significant red flag, but for me not enough to dismiss at least parts of the helmet being BW TrVsu.

Steve

[U-96]

Here are 3 more pictures.
I really see no evidence of a respray whatsoever if I look at the scuffs that are on the rim.
Thanks already for the info given here.


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[Collectinsteve]

Thanks for the pictures. The reverse side of the snap is correct for this helmet, so I'd say the straps are original. Your observations of the paint reinforce my belief that the shell is original. And your closeup of the bolts confirms that we should be confused by them

The bolts are very odd. They are inherently the correct type (i.e. not slotted), but they are missing the crucial two small holes for the tightening tool. Yet the bolts are painted exactly the same color as the helmet!

At the moment I see an original BW TrVsu helmet with bolts that I can not explain. Perhaps there was a bad batch of bolts and because it was Friday at 1600 they were installed?

Steve

[U-96]

Thanks for the pictures. The reverse side of the snap is correct for this helmet, so I'd say the straps are original. Your observations of the paint reinforce my belief that the shell is original. And your closeup of the bolts confirms that we should be confused by them



The bolts are very odd. They are inherently the correct type (i.e. not slotted), but they are missing the crucial two small holes for the tightening tool. Yet the bolts are painted exactly the same color as the helmet!



At the moment I see an original BW TrVsu helmet with bolts that I can not explain. Perhaps there was a bad batch of bolts and because it was Friday at 1600 they were installed?



Steve

Hi Steve

At one point I thought the same haha: monday morning or friday evening assembly.
For now I can settle with the thought that I have an oddball original one...

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[Collectinsteve]

No collector likes it when something is "wrong" but there is no easily explaination for it. Especially on something that is often fully or partially altered to turn it into something it isn't. It is correct to be suspicious of strange things on this type of helmet!

The problem with the bolts is they don't make any sense either as genuine BW TrVsu or as faked WW2. They are simply "wrong". Even the reproduction WW2 helmets bolts with the correct holes. Yet these "wrong" bolts exist and they are on an otherwise good helmet!

Our problem, as collectors, is only a small number of these helmets were produced and only a smaller number remain in original condition. So many were lost, repurposed (I have a SEK modified helmet), and bastardized into fake WW2 helmets. This gives us enough documentation to know what is normal "correct" and normal "fake" for this helmet, but not enough to know what is abnormal "correct".

Well, at the very least the manufacturing flaw theory fits all of the facts. I'm curious to know if anybody else can explain the existence of these flawed bolts.

My advice is to think of your helmet and the bolts as genuine BW TrVsu FJ helmet unless evidence surfaces that shows it to be fake.

Steve

[U-96]

They remain strange and off but still they match the helmet in shape, size,color,... Maybe an ultra rare variant
I think I'm going to keep it and be happy with my purchase.

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