Royal West Kent Regt, 20th London, W K Yeo & N/K Badges.

[leigh kitchen]

As a lead on from postings on thread on Essex Regt badges, a troop (well, they look like theiy're dancing so more like a troupe) of West Kent White Horses.

From the left - the Royal West Kent Regiment's badge, what is basically the same badge but without the RWK Regt tri-scroll, the badge as worn by 20th County of London (Blackheath & Woolwich), & that of the West Kent Yeomanry.

All one piece strikings, I have no idea what the 2nd from left is, it does'nt appear to have had the tri-scroll removed.
Could it be a basic white horse which could be used as a RWK Regt badge or 20th London badge depending on which scroll was added?
I've never seen a RWK Regt badge with seperately struck tri-scroll, although I have a 20th London with seperately struck name scroll.

[leigh kitchen]

The two 20th London badges that Ii have - the one piece striking shown above, & to the right a two piece striking.

[leigh kitchen]

& the reverses.

[Keith Blakeman]

The two 20th London badges that Ii have - the one piece striking shown above, & to the right a two piece striking.

The once piece striking is certainly the better looking badge even taking the polishing of the other one into account. I regret getting rid of mine now. Can't add much to the first posting really, the one without a scroll is a curious one and I have one also. The West Kent Yeomanry is often reffered to as a Kent Cyclists badge. I don't have any references to hand but one has a more upright snout, there are differences in the mane flowing across the body, the front legs join and the tail also joins the body. Some badges have some or all of these features, its a real problem.

Attached is my officers 20th London which for a bronze badge is pretty ropey, especially the Invicta lettering. (I feel bronze badges are very underated because their detail is superb and don't seem to have the surface polish that OR's suffer from).

Keith

[Ciaran Byrne]

If I didn't know better I would swear that Captain Mainwaring was with this regiment

[leigh kitchen]

Mainwaring & his elite body of men were badged as Royal West Kent Regt, most Home Guard units adopted the abdge of their county infantry regiment.
The shouder patches with two letters on were in the same format as genuine HG patches but in this case wcomprised the initials of the two script writers.

[leigh kitchen]

....... The West Kent Yeomanry is often reffered to as a Kent Cyclists badge. I don't have any references to hand but one has a more upright snout, there are differences in the mane flowing across the body, the front legs join and the tail also joins the body. Some badges have some or all of these features, its a real problem.

Attached is my officers 20th London which for a bronze badge is pretty ropey, especially the Invicta lettering. (I feel bronze badges are very underated because their detail is superb and don't seem to have the surface polish that OR's suffer from).

Keith

Is there any difference between WKY & Kent Cyclists?
I put the slight differences in these badges down to manufacturers variations.

I think it's Gaylor who mentions how boring OSD badges are as they're almost invariably the same design as OR's badges but in bronze finish.
I missed out on dozens of them over the years because I was restricting myself in the main to infantry OR's badges.

Recently picked up a few OSD - Royal Dublin Fus, Norfolk (without name tablet), AVC, Welsh Regt, Lincs, West Yorks, mainly with a prong or two missing, from different dealers but all about £5 or less, apart from the Norfolks which was about £10.

Dull detail or not, 20th London's still a nice badge 'tho I prefer OSD with prongs rather than sliders.

[Ciaran Byrne]

Mainwaring & his elite body of men were badged as Royal West Kent Regt, most Home Guard units adopted the abdge of their county infantry regiment.
The shouder patches with two letters on were in the same format as genuine HG patches but in this case wcomprised the initials of the two script writers.

I was under the impression that all the badges and patches were fantasy items specially made for the series. I read it in a book about Home Guard Uniforms recently.

[max7474]

Is there any difference between WKY & Kent Cyclists?
I put the slight differences in these badges down to manufacturers variations.

I think it's Gaylor who mentions how boring OSD badges are as they're almost invariably the same design as OR's badges but in bronze finish.
I missed out on dozens of them over the years because I was restricting myself in the main to infantry OR's badges.

Recently picked up a few OSD - Royal Dublin Fus, Norfolk (without name tablet), AVC, Welsh Regt, Lincs, West Yorks, mainly with a prong or two missing, from different dealers but all about £5 or less, apart from the Norfolks which was about £10.

Dull detail or not, 20th London's still a nice badge 'tho I prefer OSD with prongs rather than sliders.

Reginald Cox's book shows the 2 designs with slightly different snouts and attirbutes each of the design to each unit separately.

[leigh kitchen]

Reginald Cox's book shows the 2 designs with slightly different snouts and attirbutes each of the design to each unit separately.

K&K show the badge(s) with seperate reference numbers for the WKY & the Kent Cyclists, the two images are almost identical but are in fact of two different badges, they have'nt used the same specimen in the photos but the differences are extremely minor - just slight manufacturers variations.

Gaylor just uses the one image for both units.

How reliable is Cox? Does he "know" that the badges were different, or is he just expressing an opinion based on no real substance? Are we simply talking about inconsequential differences of detail due to manufacturers using different dies?

Even so, the use of slightly different dies could make the difference between a badge being that of one unit or the other.

From memory, there are two variations that I'd noticed in the past - a badge that looks very much like that of the West Kent Regt horse but with the different "Invicta" lettering & a slightly larger beast, plumper, which looks like the one I show in the photo.

As an aside, how good is Cox's? I have'nt got a copy, I was going to buy one years ago but a few different dealers advised me not to bother as it was full of inaccuracies. Maybe they were just trying to keep me in the dark, it looked like a fairly good book to me, it covered a lot of ground.

[Keith Blakeman]

Recently picked up a few OSD - Royal Dublin Fus, Norfolk (without name tablet), AVC, Welsh Regt, Lincs, West Yorks, mainly with a prong or two missing, from different dealers but all about £5 or less, apart from the Norfolks which was about £10.

Dull detail or not, 20th London's still a nice badge 'tho I prefer OSD with prongs rather than sliders.

The photo makes it look like a slider but it does in fact have N/S blades. I'll start a seperate thread shortly showing what I feel are the merits of OSD badges with some comparisons against the OR's versions. I was once told that slidered bronze badges were a sign of 1980's restrikes and avoid them unless they are what you would call 'bronzed' (presumbly a bronze coating over brass). Some OR's were deliberately made in this finish, the Household Cavalry springs to mind. I don't have K&K which may also have the same information, but Cox's book is very useful here as it lists the various finishes of every WW1 badge.

Keith

[leigh kitchen]

The photo makes it look like a slider but it does in fact have N/S blades. I'll start a seperate thread shortly showing what I feel are the merits of OSD badges with some comparisons against the OR's versions. I was once told that slidered bronze badges were a sign of 1980's restrikes and avoid them unless they are what you would call 'bronzed' (presumbly a bronze coating over brass). Some OR's were deliberately made in this finish, the Household Cavalry springs to mind. I don't have K&K which may also have the same information, but Cox's book is very useful here as it lists the various finishes of every WW1 badge.

Keith

Now you've mentioned them the prongs are obvious from the photo.
I think that some of the more modern OSD badges were produced with sliders & a kind of glossy bronze finish, I have at least one, a St. Edwards Crown Royal Fusiliers, it has a strange matt copper bronze finish to the reverse.
There seems no real reason why OSD badges should have the prongs replaced by a slider unless the prongs were broken off. I have a Kings Crown Int Corp with slider, can't remember if the prongs were broken off or if their position is just marked in the metal & they were'nt actually attached.
Don't know about Houshold Cavalry badge in bronze, but of course the Blues & Royals is. Offhand there's the Princess of Wales's bronze badge worn in the beret by other ranks, & the 17th Lancers had a bronze OR's badge during WWI.
I've seen some glossy, new looking Leicester, & possibly Uppingham School OSD badges recently, but am suspicious of their newness & shine.

[max7474]

.[/QUOTE]
As an aside, how good is Cox's? I have'nt got a copy, I was going to buy one years ago but a few different dealers advised me not to bother as it was full of inaccuracies. Maybe they were just trying to keep me in the dark, it looked like a fairly good book to me, it covered a lot of ground.[/QUOTE]

I find it a good read if nothing else and his pictures are better than Gaylor or K&K as they are life size. There are some inconsistencies with other books and some of his comments are questionable such as the Glasgow Highlanders badge post 39 pattern being a WW1 pipers badge! He does however have some good points that others are wrong about (Cardiff Pals was a collar and Tyneside Irish was a shoulder title and as such should both have lugs) that other authors are wrong about (unless you read the really specilised books on kitcheners army in these cases).

[leigh kitchen]

Sounds like I need a copy.

You'll have trouble persuading some that the Tyneside Irish badge is a S/T & not a cap badge - Jim for one , I think.

I've only ever seen it worn as a S/T in photos, not that I've seen many of those.

Westlake in his book on Kitchener Battalions shows a good photo of the harp being worn as a S/T.

[Jim Maclean]

Sounds like I need a copy.

You'll have trouble persuading some that the Tyneside Irish badge is a S/T & not a cap badge - Jim for one , I think.

I've only ever seen it worn as a S/T in photos, not that I've seen many of those.

Westlake in his book on Kitchener Battalions shows a good photo of the harp being worn as a S/T.

I surrender!