King's Own Cap Badge Variation.

[leigh kitchen]

Top left is the pattern in use from Victorian times through the world wars until the 1950's.
Top right is its replacement anodised version.
Bottom right is a metat version presumably produced as a private purchase to conform with the design of the anodised badge.
Bottom left is one that I got a couple of days ago, it is manufactured as per top left, the lion & name bar struck seperately from each other (the lion on its own was also used as a collar dog, but the name bar is unvoided.
It was labelled "1952 - 1958", but I doubt that it's a variation on the badge at bottom right.
If it's genuine then I feel that it's a WWI economy issue, manufactured as usual in two pieces, but with the name bar left unvoided.
Unlike the thick metal lettering of the badge top left, the lettering on this one is hollow stamped into thin metal, the name bar is of a distinctly yellowish colour when compared to the lion.
The lion is well made, the name bar not so well.
The lion is presumably gilding metal, perhaps a collar dog (it has copper loop fittings, so it could've been produced as cap or collar), with the addition of a brass name bar.
I've never seen one of these before, has anyone any knowledge or views please?

[leigh kitchen]

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[leigh kitchen]

The badge in question.

[leigh kitchen]

And its reverse.

[Jim Maclean]

Colin Churchill states that the collar badges described in the 1902 Dress Regs are 'As for forage cap but in pairs'. He also goes on to say that the polished form was worn by officers in khaki drill uniform. Unfortunately the illustration does not show the lettering on a solid tablet. The lettering was removed in 1937.
Best I can come up with.

[leigh kitchen]

Ta, I never knew that the cap badge design complete, ie with wording was worn as a collar dog.

Id've thought they'd be smaller, especially if for officers, but don't know.
This one is good quality lion but poorish quality wording tablet, there's even a sharp little nick that may be visible in the photos about half way along the bottom of the tablet, as if somebody's not been too careful with the metal slips.

[max7474]

I have seen a few of these solid tablet badges. They were fretted until they went anodised. I am sceptical about the all brass solid ones as they often have the JRGaunt. London mark so often seen on restrikes. I doubt any soldier would buy a solid bar one privately as if he was an old sweat (or wanted to appear to be one) he would buy an old fretted one off a market stall for a few pennies. Additionally the whole point of economy badges in WW1 was that they saved labour being one piece (as well as nickel). So if you are going to save labour and have a solid bar to save time on the frettwork (if there is any saving when stamping a badge) then you would make it single piece die and not a separate bar that has to be brazed on to the bar just as the fretted one does.
IMO the solid bar are restrikes from makers without the correct dies to amke the fretted titles.

[leigh kitchen]

The badge I've shown as bottom right is one of those JR Gaunt solid tablet items, there were loads of them around in the 70's - 80's, also some which had a silver sort of finish (I think it was the 4th Bn who wore white metal badges as they'd been a tank bn in during WWII? - don't know when they stopped wearing a w/m badge), I don't know what they were supposed to be.

I was always very suspicious of these thick yellow metal badges which I've only ever seen marked as JR Gaunt pieces.
Having said that, there was'nt the market back then that there is now for even the most common badge being a restrike / fake.

This solid tablet variety is not a simple restrike as far as I can see - it's struck in thick metal, the same manufacture as so many 1950's badges, different to earlier ones. Fakes vary, but we're a world away from the bendy badge or even thin metal types here.

The one that I've got could be from the same die as the anodised one I've got, as shown in the photos - except that I've always been advised that the same equipment can't be used on the different materials.

Every voided name version that I've seen has had the name bar sweated on, they've not been one piece strikings.

A two piece badge seems fairly sensible as the cap badge was also the left collar dog, add the name bar - you've got a cap badge.

I don't see that a WWI economy production would demand the expense of a new one piece die, - the badges are already being made in two pieces so you use your usual cap / left hand collar lion & just stick on an indifferently made solid name bar.
Makes sense to me.
I agree that the obvious thing for a squaddie who wants to wear a metal badge is to get one of the old fretted ones, Id've thought that was preferable to a solid name bar one.

I don't know what the story is behind that solid bar one piece version, but my query is about the solid bar version that I've posted - basically the usual two piece badge with well produced lion but with a carefully attached but not particularly well struck thin metal unvoided name bar that is in a yellow brassy coloured metal rather than the more coppery gilding metal colour of the lion.
Instead of thick metal voided lettering the lettering on this one is raised hollow diestruck & would be a challenge to fret presumably, & too fragile to be worn or polished Id've thought.
Leads me to think that it's a "normal" cap collar lion with economy name bar, but you never know.

[max7474]

The 4th bn certainly wore a white metal version when they were RAC in WW2 - they are in the RAC tank museum at Bovington. These badges have been badly faked in recent years by silvering the usual brass badges.
As far as WW1 economy goes othe regts certainly did have new dies struck for single striking of a solid badge such as the Suffolks, Hants etc whereas other regts which already had all white metal badges such as the Somersets and camerons used old worn dies. My point is that there is no saving in striking a 2 piece badge with a solid scroll as it takes just as long as a fretted single stamping to attach it. I cannot think I have seen of any photos of soldiers wearing solid bar badges. I agree it would be unlikely that you could use anodised dies for brass badges as there is considerable differnt forces involved as the anodised are die stuck in the same way.

[leigh kitchen]

You'd have to make a new die to produce badges for some regiments because the original's would have sweat holes, blank name scrolls etc & so were'nt suitable as a single strike badge (although some strikings over the years have been "complete" & without sweat holes, with the other metal part of the badge just sweated on over a perfectly formed badge.
The KORR did'nt have this problem.
I've never seen a photo of a solid name bar being worn, but then I've never come across a one piece with voided name bar (or the unvoided name bar on it's own stated by Ray Westlake to have appeared in a Gaunt catalogue of 1904 as a shoulder title - a different matter).

Why would somebody go to the trouble of making a die to produce an unvoided & apparently unvoidable name bar in order to stick it on a "good" cap / collar lion?
Perhaps a little man who's got in on the act, or a more recent faker, 'tho it's hard to see why he'd bother.
As always I suppose there's money in whatever fakers get up to.

As I posted initially, I don't know whether this badge is genuine or not, that's why I want opinions. If it is, then I feel that it's not as it was labelled, a 1950's badge but a WWI version. The one piece badges that may or may not be "genuine" metal versions of the anodised solid name badge are a different animal.

This looks a like a genuine cap / collar lion - don't know exactly what the name bar's about though.