Hessian covered MKII with hidden markings...Could it be from Commando's ?

[JUBILEE42]

Hi to All!

A very interesting early MKII found in the 80's on a flea market of a French village located between Nantes & St Nazaire (French Atlantic coast), comes to me recently.
Typically B.E.F it could be from early British Commando's also...

With a Rocco 1939 shell blackened outside & inside with a hand painted mat black-green paint topped with a rough layer of black tar and covered by a green dyed hessian cover, the most interesting detail is located on the early round pad liner, more precisely on the support band where the maker & date are usually stamped...on that one, obviously to erase these marking, several "X" have been heavily stamped to mask any visible factory indication.

Considering that I'm quite sure that this "over-stamping" have not been added post war (to mask a post war liner dated for exemple...which would have no interest on an early liner like this one since necessarily wartime or before), I would like to know if anyone have ever heard something about a instruction directive from 1940, mentioning that the markings of the equipment used by the British commandos for the early Raids (Norway, St Nazaire ...) had to be masked / erased / covered in order to avoid the Identification of manufacturers' names in case of captivity...Would anyone know anything about it ???

Thanks & Best to All!
Thierry


The Helmet

[tinlid]

I've seen HELMETS Ltd maker names obliterated by OOOOOOO, but had no doubt to think it was anything to do with security.
BEF covers I'm pretty sure had loops, while your type are slightly later. I take it the stitching I can see on the outside makes the tunnel for the string to go through to tighten. Mine and others I've seen are done differently, but that's not to say yours is wrong.
The helmet is very worn while your cover is in good condition, it should, to match the helmet be thread bare on the top, and also around the rim, so I think not original to the helmet.
Any pictures of the outside of the helmet.

[peter monahan]

Unlike, say the US 'black ops' into Cambodia, the Commando raids were made in marked uniforms, which is why Hitler ordering them shot was a war crime. So, no point in hiding the source of their kit. The only extra security employed was for those members of No. 10 Commando who came from Occupied Europe, some of whom wore dog tags IDing them, for example, as Scots Presbyterians rather than German Jews.

[Bond]

As already stated there seems to be a miss match in condition between cover and helmet, the later looking very worn.

Both might be original period items but unlikely they saw service together IMO.

[peter monahan]

Agreed, Bond.

[JUBILEE42]

Thanks to Peter, Bond & Tinlid for your comments

"the Commando raids were made in marked uniforms"
That's true for what I've seen and from what I know precisely (the Dieppe Raid...again) as the N°3, N°4 & N°10 commando's worn their marked uniforms & equipment...Anyway, for our case, why having hidden the liner markings and not the one on the shell..?

"so I think not original to the helmet...Any pictures of the outside of the helmet?"
Frankly, with helmet in hand, I think that there's good chance that both were originally together...Even if it looks in pretty good condition, the cover is also very worn with difference of thickness and patina from wear which could match the helmet shell... The actual owner (this is not my helmet) remove the cover to check the outside shell and maybe not replace it exactly as it was, but the cover have left typical traces on the top of the shell rough paint which is clearly marked by the weft of a burlap fabric, matching pretty well the weft of the cover in question...

I will make photos of the helmet without the cover as per more detailed pictures of the cover itself and will post them here soon for your reference...and appreciated opinions of course

Best to All
Thierry

[tinlid]

Thierry,
That would be good to see close up pictures of the cover, see how it is made. Plus of the outside of the helmet.
Thanks

[JUBILEE42]

Thierry,
That would be good to see close up pictures of the cover, see how it is made. Plus of the outside of the helmet.
Thanks

Hi to All!
As promised, some additional detailed photos...

Helmet & cover (still) together...















The "Rocco 1939" Helmet shell and "X" liner (a "Vero" probably)






























The cover separately.
outside...








& Inside.








The Red cotton-silk string details












...& a photo montage showing the juxtaposition of cover & shell pictures (taken separately) where the matching wear is particularly visible...imho.



Best to All!
Thierry

[tinlid]

Thank you very much for the extra photo's Thierry, you are starting to convince me that this is correct. It's very hard to be won over when you see things that are not done in the conventional way, especially with the amount of fakes that are about these days. The rivet securing the chin strap lugs is more what you see on private purchase helmets, not standard. The black come brown paint not standard, the cover with that stitching round the outside not standard. But I have to say that cover has been on there a bloody long time, and has wear which I couldn't see in the first pictures. Although I have no experience of helmets painted this way, I can not fault it, I'm sorry I doubted it.
Thanks for showing.

[Jean-Loup]

Who knows how many years this helmet could have been worn for before the cover was added??
Also, in humid conditions the helmet can rust while cloth items remain in good condition.

[NARVIK1940]

Here is an interesting period picture of a soldier with a hessian cover.
7-3-800x608.jpg
A 5.5-inch gun crew from 75th (Shropshire Yeomanry) Medium Regiment, Royal Artillery, in action in Italy, September 1943. Photo courtesy IWM.

[NARVIK1940]

...

[Totenhead]

No3 Commando returning from Dieppe Raid

Helmet covers perhaps ?

[Totenhead]

The below picture is, I speculate the haunting image of Captain Bill Pritchard 76488, Corps of Royal Engineers (attached to Special Service Brigade)
He was bayoneted and killed in the Old Town, St Nazaire during the Raid.

From the picture I believe i can see there is a cover on his helmet ??? possibly hessian....