Canadian unit designation help

[JoeW]

I have a piece of militaria that is marked that it was taken the 10th of May, 1945 by the 2/23 Brigade Canadian Infantry in Cuxhaven. Would the numerical designation mean the 2 Can Inf Div/ 23 Brigade or vice versa? Thanks for any assistance.

[byterock]

Well we had not 23rd brigade in ETO. We did have a 2nd armored brigade but no 23rd unit.

There was the 23rd Field Regiment RCA It cold be that unit but that was part of the 4th Div

[JoeW]

Well we had not 23rd brigade in ETO. We did have a 2nd armored brigade but no 23rd unit.

There was the 23rd Field Regiment RCA It cold be that unit but that was part of the 4th Div

Thank you for your assistance. I am not familiar with the Canadian OOB in ETO. Perhaps 2 Brigade/ 23 Battalion? All I know is that Canadian forces did occupy Cuxhaven.

[byterock]

Do you have the dates and I can look up what units where in the area.

No there where only regiments in Canadian Inf Divs. An infantry Brigade with 20+ battalions would be rather large . Normally a Cnadain Brigade of that time was three batallions from three different regiments.

ie

3th inf Brigade
Royal Winnipeg Regiment
Regina Rifles
1st Battalion Can Scots

Most of the infantry regiments had a 1st battalion at the front and a 2nd Battalion back in Canada for training and recruitment.


Could be #2 battery 23rd CRA but will need the date frame when they where there and I can then narrow down the unit search.

[JoeW]

Do you have the dates and I can look up what units where in the area.............................................. ............................................
Could be #2 battery 23rd CRA but will need the date frame when they where there and I can then narrow down the unit search.

The only date on the notation is May 10, 1945 which would indicate immediate occupation troops, as the surrender was a few days earlier. The item was taken from water police headquarters located at one of the docks that is still in use today.

[byterock]

Ok good that is a lead.

Can't seem to find 'Cuxhaven' on any period map I have.

What is the largest city near it?

Is it near Groningen, Delfzul, Leer or Oldenburg or maybe Wilhemshaven?

Cheers

[JoeW]

Cuxhaven is a port at the mouth of the Elbe River. It is at 12, Hamburg at 3, Bremen at 6 and Wilhelmshaven at 9.

[byterock]

Well I got good news and bad news

First bad news.

No Canadian Army unit was in the Cuxhaven area in May 1945

No Canadian Army unit was assigned to occupation duties in Cuxhaven area

Now the good news (but not really)

The 3rd Div (The duplicate div) did do occupation duty across the way in the border area of from 'Wilhelmshaven' down to 'Osnabrück' from 45 till 47 and found a very obscure history on it here

There where US Occupation forces in the area at the time as well around Bremen. While Cuxhaven was in the British 2nd Army sector.

I think you have a piece of US kit that sort of designation 2/23rd sounds very US to me.

[JoeW]

Looking through that interesting link you provided, in Appendix D, the OoB for the 3rd Canadian Inf Div, what do the designations 2/with a number for artillery, engineers and infantry mean? Of course I couldn't find a 2/23, but it seems to be a common unit numbering designation.

[byterock]

For exampled this line

Birgadier T.G. Gibson, D.S.O., 2/7 Cdn Inf Bde, C.A.O.F.

Given at the time of its creation just after the war the 2 was added to make it distinct from the 1st / 7 Cdn Inf Bde which was still disbanding

For example the The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (M.G.) had for a short time 3 Battalions

Basically
1st Active, but being sent home and disbanded Nov 30 1945
2nd Reserve, in Ottawa
3rd Part of the C.A.O.F. made up of volunteers and men without rotation points to be sent home

so

3 C.H. of O would be 3rd Battalion

Just just a mark of distinction more than anything else

I did manage to find a better version of the OOB which gives what the number mean

Order of Battle
3rd Canadian Division
Canadian Army Occupation Force
1945-1946

3rd Battalion, The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (M.G.)

2nd 7th Brigade
4th Battalion, The Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada
4th Battalion, The Royal Winnipeg Rifles
4th Battalion, The Regina Rifle Regiment

2nd 8th Brigade
3rd Battalion, Le Régiment de la Chaudière
3rd Battalion, The North Shore (New Brunswick) Regiment
4th Battalion, The Canadian Scottish Regiment

2nd 9th Brigade
3rd Battalion, The Highland Light Infantry of Canada
3rd Battalion, The Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders
3rd Battalion, The North Nova Scotia Highlanders

Canadian Infantry Corps:
2nd 7th Infantry Brigade Ground Defence Platoon (Lorne Scots)
2nd 8th Infantry Brigade Ground Defence Platoon (Lorne Scots)
2nd 9th Infantry Brigade Ground Defence Platoon (Lorne Scots)

Canadian Armoured Corps:
2nd 7th Reconnaissance Regiment

Royal Canadian Artillery:
2nd 3rd Anti-Tank Regiment
2nd 12th Field Regiment
2nd 13th Field Regiment
2nd 14th Field Regiment
2nd 4th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment

As well as units of the RCE, RCSigs, RCASC, RCAMC, CDC, RCOC, RCEME, CPC, and the Canadian Provost Corps.




As well as you seen really keen have a look here some chaps have even researched where units where staying at this time

[JoeW]

Today must be a bad day for the old brain. I still don't understand. The OoB for the 3rd Can Div and its lists 2nd 7th Brigade. What does the 2nd stand for? The Second 7th Brigade? What happened to the 1st? I am lost. Perhaps I am worrying about it too much.

I did find a combat position map in the book Die Dritte Weltkrieg by Jacobsen and Dollinger and it showed as of May 7, both 2 Can AK and XXX Br AK were heading towards Cuxhaven.

[byterock]

Not enough coffee I guess

For a very short time in 1945 there where two

7th Cdn Inf Bde, 3rd Div

and the

2nd 7th Cdn Inf Bde, 3rd Div C.A.O.F.


The 7th was stood down and in the process of demobilization while the 2nd 7th was active and in the process for forming and taking up occupation duty.

So the '2' was just used to tell the two units apart for correspondence etc.

"I did find a combat position map in the book Die Dritte Weltkrieg by Jacobsen and Dollinger and it showed as of May 7, both 2 Can AK and XXX Br AK were heading towards Cuxhaven. "

hmm there is something odd in the above what does AK stand for?

At the time in that area of operations (Operation Veritable and later) There was the

'First Canadian Army' which was made up of the

I Canadian Corps
II Canadian Corps
XXX British Corps

The boundary between the II and XXX corps was the 'Wester' so the II corps never crossed it.

There is always problems in this area. Tactical map markings verses what the unit was know as, have a look at this map give what the Generals would look at.

Non tactical maps tend to mix the two.


So in UK designation
Army, UC word FIRST, SECOND
Corps, UC Roman Numerals I, IV, XXX
Div, Arabic Numerals 1, 3

Plus all sorts of extra little things

Have a look at Canadian Solders or download this doc for the official history


To get back on track what is the item that is marked?

[byterock]

Well some good news for you.

There was on '23' unit attached to the 3rd Div C.A.O.F. and given a '2'

it was

'2nd 23 Field Ambulance'

so the 2/23 could be that unit

Can't find much info on it but did find this line in the RCAMC official history

"With the departure of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, Canadian Army
Occupation Force, for Germany on 8 July the medical problem was eased, and on 14 August No. 23 Canadian Field Ambulance disbanded"

The RCAMC Field Ambulances where involve in the movement of German POW casualties from Allied care to German. They could of ranged all over North Western Germany delivering stretcher cases to German military hospitals.

[JoeW]

Not enough coffee I guess
.................................................. .................................................. ...

To get back on track what is the item that is marked?

Sorry I didn't provide this to begin with. From the WSP offices on the docks in Cuxhaven. The office address from period police records is still a functioning pier.

[byterock]

Ok no way to trace that back.

No Canadian Unit was near Cuxhaven on or around 10th May.

Checked the British units in the area no '23' of any form.


Just miss-labeled me thinks unless it is from a town along the Weser.

This will just be a mystery then