Royal Navy Ensign (69" x 35") opinions?

[PaulW]

Hi all, wondered if anyone had any opinions on this RN Ensign (69" x 35") I picked up recently, regarding possible time period/ where it might have been used? It appears to be made of a fairly coarse (wool?) bunting, and appears hand-sewn! I know hand-sewing was used in the American Civil War but....

The white sections have yellowed a little with age, it may have been in a smokers house at some point?

I may try to make some small repairs to prevent further damage if I can. Also any opinions on removing the stains, general cleaning (or leaving the flag as is) would be much appreciated.

Regards, Paul

[PaulW]

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[Totenhead]

I have a feeling its been made at home

[byterock]

Yes something not pusser about this flag. An white Ensign should be a cross of St. George with the royal union flag in the top left corner.

[oldflagswanted]

White ensign without large St. George's Cross ???

... any opinions on this RN Ensign (69" x 35") I picked up recently,
regarding possible time period/ where it might have been used? ...
Regards, Paul

Hello Paul:
IMO a vintage example of the "ensign of the Royal Yacht Squadron,
founded as The Yacht Club in 1815 and granted Royal patronage in
1820. The Club adopted an unauthorised White Ensign without the
large St George's Cross. The Admiralty banned this flag, but later
relented and granted the privilege of using the Royal Navy's White
Ensign in 1829. (information from http://www.navynews.co.uk)."
OFW

[PaulW]

The Royal Yacht Squadron

Hi OFW, thanks for that. I also found that same information here:-

http://imperialflags.blogspot.co.uk/...300-years.html

The flag looks very similar, almost the same size, but looking at the close shot I would say that it is printed whereas mine is entirely hand-sewn. Information about the Royal Yacht Squadron (not part of the RN but clearly linked historically - "The Club’s association with the Royal Navy began early and Nelson’s Captain at Trafalgar, Admiral Sir Thomas Hardy, was among early Honorary Naval members") can be found here:-

https://www.rys.org.uk/about/history/

Ref the flag:-

"A plain white burgee graced the masthead of members’ yachts; they also wore a plain white ensign with the union in the canton. In 1821 this was changed to a red burgee and ensign."

"In 1829 the Admiralty issued a warrant to wear what is now the Navy’s white ensign."

If this is associated with this Club this (the flag at the top of this thread) must be a seriously old flag that pre-dates 1821!

[PaulW]

Hand-sewn flags

I have a feeling its been made at home

Hi Totenhead, that is entirely possible! I know from studying the subject of Confederate uniforms (and flags) some years ago that as well as Depot made goods local seamstresses (and skilled housewives) were sometimes sub-contracted to help fulfil contracts, literally working at home. Flags in that period were often hand-made (even though sewing machines were available in some households by then). I've added a picture of an original hand-sewn 1860's made CS flag (pictures taken in the Museum of the Confederacy in 2011) for comparison, as you can see it looks crude close-up, but absolutely fine when viewed from a distance, as a flag is mean't to be viewed of course.

[PaulW]

RAF Prototype Ensign (1920)

And finally () just to complicate things even further, this design of flag was the earliest proposed design for the RAF Ensign in 1920!

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/theroy...orceensign.cfm

From the RAF's own website:-

"The Royal Air Force Ensign was introduced in 1920 amid much controversy. This was because it involved the Admiralty, The War Office and the Air Ministry. The Air Council had decided that the newly formed Royal Air Force should fly its own flag from its stations. This did not find much favour with the Admiralty who have the right to veto the introduction of any new flag intended for use either on land or at sea anywhere within the British territories.

The Air Council though, were most insistent and so the Admiralty reluctantly conceded, stating that if the Royal Air Force was intent on having its own flag, then it should adopt the Union Flag with some appropriate device attached to it.

The Air Council did not like this idea and sent a sketch of its proposed design to the Admiralty, which was a White Ensign minus the St George's Cross. Although the War Office had no objection to this, the Admiralty did and rejected the submission on the grounds that the White Ensign, along with the Blue and Red Ensigns, were reserved for the Royal Naval Service exclusively and any use of them not connected with the Royal Navy was to be forbidden."



So could this have been one of a number of prototype RAF Ensigns made to demonstrate the design? Did anyone hand-sew flags still in 1920? Well they still make hand-sewn flags today so who knows!

http://www.theflagloft.co.uk/SewnRedEnsign.htm - Hand-sewn flags in 2015!

It's certainly an unusual one, but I like it!

Regards, Paul

[Bond]

Assuming the thread starter would pass a burn and blacklight test then it is safe to say it has some age as it appears to look old -very subjective I know- and handmade suggests some age though I think it would be difficult to date this more precisely and I would doubt it is the prototype RAF flag, as I would expect that to be better made than this appears to be. My guess -for such it is- would be a homemade flag for a member of the naval yacht club mentioned above. An interesting old flag.

[oldflagswanted]

about the thread ???

Assuming the thread starter would pass a burn and blacklight test
then it is safe to say it has some age as it appears to look old ...
and handmade suggests some age though I think it would be difficult
to date this more precisely ... An interesting old flag.

Paul:
You could also inspect the flag's hand sewn thread used,
to see if it is the later 3/2 cabled sewing machine type.
This Smithsonian textile analysis criteria is something
most are unaware of and often ignore regarding dating
old flags.
OFW