1942 G.S.W. flashed to the Black Watch

[Canuck67]

Hi Thierry Roberto John and company many thanks for the detailed replies and for your input gentlemen it is very appreciated as to this particular Mk II I do see a difference in the size of the flash when comparing it to your known examples with providence to the Dieppe Raid as well as the over painted finish in semi gloss and or textured finish .
I make no claim as to this Mk II being a veteran and or vet bring back of the raid and only use the time line as to the era the flash may have been applied it is an interesting flashed Mk II and not a first in my collection I might add and not a first time seeing a flash applied directly to the factory applied paint.
Is the flash to be considered a one off due to the size ? Or are you making claim then that it was not war time applied due to the patina and the condition of the flash wear ,scratches and scuffs not matching the condition of the helmet body
You make claim of knowing of this Mk II may I ask from were Thierry ?
Hi John as far as I know this Mk II has never been on Ebay before and was purchased from a small dealer in Halifax And yes of course I can add more detailed images but not till tomorrow in the AM .
This reply is meant with the utmost respect gents as I know things can get muttled some time and taken out of context when discussing items on forums.

Regards Mark

[Roberto T]

"This reply is meant with the utmost respect gents as I know things can get muttled some time and taken out of context when discussing items on forums."

Not an issue at all here Mark... Just an interesting piece with some great discussion! I frankly think the Bit and Commonwealth forum is a gem of WA as disagreements rarely get personal..... Its always a pleasure for me to see Canadian items here


Thierry: I am always around but rarely post... I pretty much have averaged one post a month for 10 years! Btw Pam says hi and I still havent made it to the post office yet but expect something coming your way...

[Bond]

Hi Roberto, Mark, Bond and All
...I'm really busy but will be back in few hours with updated photos of "the Helmets from the Raid" and also give my feeling about that "Black Watch" MKII...

Best To All
Thierry

Great to see the images are now in this thread Thierry and I hope you can also return them to your wonderful Dieppe thread.

[Canuck67]

Good Morning all these are the best images I can muster at 4 am I have changed the lighting a bit in the room and adjusted the mode on my camera a couple of times to give different perspectives on the multi layered paint application on the flash.

Regards Mark

[Canuck67]

A couple of more.

[JUBILEE42]

...I make no claim as to this Mk II being a veteran and or vet bring back of the raid and only use the time line as to the era the flash may have been applied it is an interesting flashed Mk II and not a first in my collection I might add and not a first time seeing a flash applied directly to the factory applied paint.
Is the flash to be considered a one off due to the size ? Or are you making claim then that it was not war time applied due to the patina and the condition of the flash wear ,scratches and scuffs not matching the condition of the helmet body...

Regards Mark

Hi Mark, Roberto, Jerry, John and All

Of course Mark you're perfectly true when you talk about Canadian flashes (painted or stencil) applied on original factory paint rather than on over painted helmet...I would say that most of Canadian flashed helmets I know are applied directly on their factory paint and this is not the question regarding your B.W MKII...Even the "no regulatory" size cannot be consider as a one off and could be an exception for the early WWII configuration of the 2nd Canadian infantry division (only for the 2nd as, from I know or saw, I never met that type of flashed helmet from another WWII Canadian infantry division, 1sr or 3rd...)


"...You make claim of knowing of this Mk II may I ask from were Thierry?"
Is it your helmet above Mark?...I think so


This picture and more have been sent to me some month ago by a collector here in Europe for me to give him my opinion especially to know if it could be an helmet from the Raid...this helmet would have been found in Holland (without evidence) and was for sale...I didn't give my thumbs up for the same reasons I gave you...but no more as it was only a photographic examination, means with caveats...& I don't know what has become of this helmet after...
As I said and based only on my personal feelings and experience, there's something on the wear of the flash quite odd for me and don't find its scratches and patina matching the aspect of the shell....this opinion is only based on photos as I never had this helmet in hand, so my thoughts can be wrong...and it's interesting to hear others here particularly with your new provided photos!



Here is an Early Canadian MKII CL/C 1940 with british liner T.T.C 1939 & elastic late type chinstrap, flashed to the Royal Canadian Engineers with a single painted flash on left side directly on the factory paint. That one was not from the Dieppe Raid but from Normandy 1944 battle field.










I would like also to share some nice and pretty rare period pics of the 2nd Canadian inf Div. staged in England training some month before the Raid on Dieppe.
You could see some flashed helmets (+ same configuration flashed tunics) matching in all points the flashes size and position of the helmets I know.
Of course over-paint is hard to check here.
Canadian Infantry training, England 1941 (wearing Denim tunics & maybe pants for some of them I think)


Interesting photo of members of Le Régiment de Maisonneuve wearing 2nd Cnd Inf Div flash topped with Red half circle on right side (as per the badged tunics) and Maisonneuve stencils at left.
Le Regiment de Maisonneuve, England 1941


The Royal Regiment of Canada embarked for Reuter/Jubilee training, England 1942 with flashed & netted MKII's


A Sergeant of Les Fusiliers du Mont Royal, England 1942


Dieppe Training! ...well fed gentlemen Officers!



Best to All!
Thierry

[Canuck67]

Good Morning Thierry many thanks for the reply and for sharing your opinion as to the image shown of the BW helmet I would have to agree that it is the same Mk II as the one in my collection .
And I do concur that the vast majority of flashed Canadian Mk II's found will either have hand painted ,stenciled and or water slide transfer decals applied directly to the factory painted finish this of course is not written in stone and one offs and different variation can be found a few of which I have in my own personal collection.
As to the scratches scuffs and nicks and overall patina of the flash matching the wear of the helmet all I can tell you Thierry is it looks good and feels good in hand. There are none of the tell tale signs to be found of tampering of any kind this of course is as well only my opinion and that is based from owning and or handling my fair share of camos and or flashed helmets over the years some of which I will share hear on the forum in depth as I have time.
I had made up my own mind concerning this particular Mk II some months back when I attempted to purchase it only to find out I had missed it by a few minutes. It was reassuring though to find out that Geoff was the one that had beaten me to it if only for the fact it as well traveled through his hands and was scrutinized by him to date it has been viewed on two other venues with with the images shown above and the images from Geoffs website and has been seen by a few other advanced collectors whom I shared the photos with.
It is also reassuring that you are the only one to date that has been some what pessimistic concerning the hand painted flash this tells me I am on the right path I do very much appreciate your opinion and I am rather enjoying the in depth discussion .

Regards Mark

[Roberto T]

Hi Mark,

Just to be clear while I am indifferent about the flash specifically, as a piece, like Thierry, I am also skeptical about this helmet.... Just meaning to help out. cheers,


Roberto

[ROBB]

The liner looks brand new and never been worn on a head as do the chinstrap attachments that would be enough to put me off . Rob

[Canuck67]

Thanks for the reply Roberto and Robb IMO this helmet looks to have been badly stored and has been banged around somewhat which is most evident on the exterior of the shell I have a couple of others flashed to the ARP that show similar wear and patina on the exterior and the interiors look in near mint or unworn condition .
I agree the liner looks like it has seen very very little use but there are definate signs of light usage on it as well as the chinstrap and crucifix pad .

Regards Mark

[grndevil44]

hello mark I think the wear on the red circle had me thinking the flash was good, but on closer look I don't know, as Thierry mentions the rest of the helmet does not appear to have the same type of "knocks" as on the blue area, and these do not seem to damage the paint underneath either, I get the feeling almost a knife has been used to take some of the blue off?

[Canuck67]

Hi John you are more than welcome to draw your own conclusion concerning the flash that is what collecting is all about the finer details.
I do know from owning a few hand painted flashed examples in my collection ware the paint is multi layered as on this particular Mk II that the paint used can be somewhat softer and will scratch and damage much easier than the factory base coat which is quite tough and hard to scatch it is much the same as comparing latex to enamel paint.
So I must disagree with your opinion and can show other examples from my collection with the same type of wear to the flash but the shell seems for the most part unscathed

Regards Mark

[Canuck67]

John here is a 1941 dated C.L./C. flashed to the Regimental Police from my collection to illustrate the differance that can be seen when comparing factory paint to some of the softer paints that can be found that were used on some flashes and you will notice there is far more damage to the flash and red band.

Regards Mark

[JUBILEE42]

John here is a 1941 dated C.L./C. flashed to the Regimental Police from my collection to illustrate the differance that can be seen when comparing factory paint to some of the softer paints that can be found that were used on some flashes and you will notice there is far more damage to the flash and red band.

Regards Mark

IMHO Mark, nothing to compare with this very nice and indisputable painted RP MKII (from Geoff also) as at first look everything is perfectly homogen even if the wear of red over-paint, as you mentioned, can be more deeply scratch at some points due to softer paint, but there's real correspondences of all marks & scratches which cover the whole helmet and no difference of wear with the flash comparing to the BW.

Best
Thierry

[JUBILEE42]

IMHO Mark, nothing to compare with this very nice and indisputable painted RP MKII (from Geoff also) as at first look everything is perfectly homogen even if the wear of red over-paint, as you mentioned, can be more deeply scratch at some points due to softer paint, but there's real correspondences of all marks & scratches which cover the whole helmet and no difference of wear with the flash comparing to the BW.

Best
Thierry

A one!