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1942 G.S.W. flashed to the Black Watch

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    1942 G.S.W. flashed to the Black Watch

    2014 was a stellar collecting year for me and I was able to add some very nice Canadian Mk II's to my collection through out the year and just when I thought it was over this little gem popped up .
    I was very fortunate to have this Mk II offered to me by a friend and and fellow collector here in Canada and after a little minor negotiating over the price I added it to my shelf.
    Good war time flashed examples are getting increasingly hard to find do to the small war time production numbers on Canadian Mk II helmets and the fact they were used by the Canadian Army for just abut 2 1/2 decades after war with a good many of them being repainted in the early 50's either a semi gloss and or gloss OD green as per regulations as the Canadian Military under went restructuring in 1952/1953 so any flashed examples left in Depots and or military stores that were put back into active service post war would have had there flashes obliterated .
    Consequently I was very happy to be able to add this 1942 G.S.W Mk II steel lot batch letter code A P to my collection it is sporting a very nice early hand painted flash to the Black Watch with this style of flash being a carry over from the type of flash used during the first world war it was re adopted early on in either late 1939 or early 1940 with known examples being found applied to British produced Mk II helmets alike that were used by the Canadian Black Watch that served with the BEF and took part in the Dieppe raid in August of 1942 .
    To the best of my knowledge this was the last time this variation of helmet flash and or insignia would have been used in a Theater Of Operations.
    It would have also been applied just under the shoulder titles of tunics and or BD's as seen in this configuration and was abandoned very shortly after the reconstitution of the Black Watch in England after there return from Dieppe.

    Regards Mark
    Attached Files

    #2
    A couple of more pics
    Attached Files

    Comment


      #3
      Certainly looks like some Thierry owns, the wear on the lash looks good too,

      Comment


        #4
        Hi John I have no doubts on the flash on this Mk II and as to your inquiry earlier today on the seller you were spot on I acquired it from Geoff.
        But sadly was unable to add the other Mk II flashed to the Calgary Highlanders.

        Regards Mark

        Comment


          #5
          Hi Mark,

          What are the markings on the liner?


          Also would love to see a pic of the lining securing bolt.

          Would love to hear Thierry's thoughts


          Roberto

          Comment


            #6
            Hi Roberto the liner is a 1942 dated VMC in a size 6 7/8 as to the liner securing nut and bolt it is of the proper style with the dish pan type securing nut found on all war time produced Canadian Mk II helmets the only difference being the securing nut and bolt has been reversed so that the dish pan nut is on the exterior of the helmet.
            Although impossible to tell when this was done I have four other Mk II helmets in my collection were they have also been reversed and IMO this was done to prevent the threaded end of the bolt that can protrude from the nut from coming in to contact with the wearers head.
            If you like I can take a couple of more detailed pics and post them in the AM .
            PS.. The liner securing nut and bolt is not the one from this Mk II it is a different one from my collection but have posted it to show the type that was used in this Mk II

            Regards Mark
            Attached Files
            Last edited by Canuck67; 01-06-2015, 01:35 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              Hi Mark,

              Interesting helmet/liner combo.

              I would say this helmet/liner combo was not together during the Dieppe raid.

              First off if my memory serves me correct all or most Dieppe raid related helmets I have seen had British liners

              Secondly they were ALL pre 1942 dated liners

              I hope Thierry can cofrim/dispell this.



              Still a great find but not a a Dieppe vet IMHO


              Roberto

              Comment


                #8
                Hi Roberto thanks for the reply I do enjoy a healthy friendly debate let's address the liner and helmet body configuration which would be correct for a 1942 dated Mk II .
                As to the helmet being used in the Dieppe raid I make no claim it was used by a Canadian soldier taking part in the raid and only state this style of flash was abandoned shortly there after there return as to Canadian produced Mk II helmets not being used at Dieppe this I would find rather odd as we were producing are on helmet bodies and components from mid 1940 .

                Regards Mark

                Comment


                  #9
                  Hi Mark,

                  Also enjoy the banter!

                  Agreed classic 1942 dated MK II

                  What is not classic and very unique is this flash on a 1942 dated Canadian shell with a 1942 dated Canadian liner.


                  I had the pleasure of visiting Dieppe and Thierry this summer.

                  He very likely has the most significant Dieppe helmet collection with best provenance. Cant explain why but:

                  Most or all had british liners

                  All liners were dated pre 42

                  Most or all shells were dated pre 42



                  I saw this helmet for sale with Dieppe written in the title......

                  I would say that this is very very unlikely with the 42 dates and above info of other examples


                  Lastly, since this flash was abandoned soon after Dieppe i do find it odd finding it on this helmet/liner combo

                  Just my 2 cents

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Roberto let us discuss a few numbers 4,963 Canadian soldiers shipped out to Dieppe From England so are you actually suggesting that out of all those soldiers there were no Canadian Mk II helmets and or if there was any Canadian helmet bodies they were all equipped with British liners.
                    May I ask what is the basis behind your theory are you basing this solely on Thierry's Helmet collection which I might add I completely agree with you ( He very likely has the most significant Dieppe helmet collection with best provenance I have had the pleasure of seeing a bit of )
                    I for one do not believe this to be true we had produced 976.600 combat grade helmet bodies from 1940 till early very 1943 with the vast majority of those produced in 1942.
                    General Steel Wares ( G.S.W.) produced it's last combat grade Mk II helmet body by May of 1942 and hence forth only produced helmet bodies of mild steel for the Department of Public Health ( DP&H ).
                    This is of course not to say that this particular Mk II belonged to a serving member that took part in the Dieppe Raid but with IMO the low steel lot batch prefix leaves quite a large window so one can not rule out the possibility it was issued to a soldier/Officer and or NCO here that shipped out to Great Britain but with out any providence it is only a Mk II flashed to the Black Watch and I am 100% OK with that.
                    As to the helmets description on the website it was referred to (As A stunning Mk II helmet with painted insignia to the Canadian Black Watch. The helmet itself is a GSW 1942 production with proper brass screw, liner and chinstrap.

                    The insignia is of the type only worn early on during the war (similar to WW1 div patches) and is noted for being worn at the Dieppe Raid. Quite possible that this one saw service there and made it back with a survivor.

                    Don't miss this one!)

                    I knew of this particular Mk II long before it was ever listed for sale and or offered to me as I missed out on this helmet on a different site some months back by minutes just to find out it had been acquired by my friend Geoff while we were discussing new acquisitions while trading E-mails he not only owns the site you seen it listed for sale on he is as well an advanced collector so I had already drew my own conclusions about the helmet and the flash many months back and my opinion was not tainted by the listing as I all ready knew the history of the Black Watch from my own research.

                    Regards Mark

                    Comment


                      #11
                      A shame the thread on Dieppe helmets has lost its images.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Hi Roberto, Mark, Bond and All
                        ...I'm really busy but will be back in few hours with updated photos of "the Helmets from the Raid" and also give my feeling about that "Black Watch" MKII...

                        Best To All
                        Thierry

                        Comment


                          #13

                          Salut Roberto! glad to hear you here!
                          Hi Mark, Jerry and All,

                          ...First of all I don't claim to possess the truth and it is only through experience of the Dieppe battlefield that I would give my opinion...my comments are only based from the observation of around 20 MKII with indisputable "Dieppe 1942" origins either because I owns today around 10 of them, or because I was able to have the others known in hand (from my friend Hervé F. who own the others 10 here in Dieppe) and draw conclusions...or rather the features common to all helmets from the Raid observed. Of course I know there's always exceptions which confirm the rules but there's also the "feeling" and it's by this way that I would give my thoughts

                          I know this helmet and frankly it's not an MKII I would add to my collection...mainly because, contrary to what is said, it is not characteristic of Dieppe helmets and for me the question is not; "could it be use by a Dieppe vet?" but mostly; "Does it have the specific features of the (known) helmets from the Raid?"

                          ...I would say no...partly for the reasons mentioned by Roberto;
                          "Most or all had British liners / All liners were dated pre 42 /Most or all shells were dated pre 42"...But even so, this could be contradicted by some examples I observed and it would absurd to pretend that Canadians were only equipped by British helmets or liners! of course not...I know at least 3 to 4 of these helmets from the raid, entirely Canadian made, shells & VCM liners, Flashed or not and I have a non flashed MKII from the field with British shell dated 1942 (& British liner from 1939) but it could have belonged to a British (Commando, sailor, services...) and nothing allows to determine whether it was used by a British or a Canadian...but still, the only object/item dated 1942 that I know from the Raid...

                          My concern are more about its painted aspect and more than this, its flash...

                          ALL the Canadian MKII, flashed or not, I had in hands, have been over painted with thin or thick layer of characteristic Olive green semi gloss & semi textured paint and Black Watch presented here is far from an indisputable "Dieppe patina"...but I'm agree that even that may be questionable...

                          This is clearly the flash which make me say that it's not an MKII from the Dieppe Raid as it looks absolutely different as per its size and position of ALL others Canadian flashed MKII from the Raid I saw.
                          All Flashed Canadian MKII I observed are double flashed even if I known an exception which is a single flashed MKII of the Essex Scottish (GSW 1941 & C.C.L 1940 liner - pics enclosed) so we cannot consider double flash as a "rule"...But the size as the position of the flashes on ALL helmets I checked are very specific and I would say that, over the question of "British or Canadian made", or even the different paint finishes they may have, this is the features of the flashes which are the common point to all observed helmets...
                          ...And some veterans confirm to me that the flash had to have a "regulation" size & position which is easily understandable.
                          All the flash seen are 4cm x 2.5cm (with some milometers difference but no more) and positioned at both side, 2cm to 3cm upper the chinstrap lug rivet.

                          The flash of the Black Watch MKII in question have the WWI large size and single flash style but with the WWII position on side when it was painted on front on WWI helmets....


                          At last, I don't find that the flash matches the helmet and I'm not convinced by the wear of the flash...The fact that it comes from Geoff (that I know also) is not a guaranty despite he's a real nice and serious guy and master the subject...although he have one splendid MKII double flashed to the Saskatchewan Rgt with textbook Dieppe raid features and I hope he doesn't mind if I post some pictures of his splendid flashed MKII here for example.

                          Hope this helps...
                          Best to All
                          Thierry


                          Here are some pictures of Helmets from the Raid...




                          Helmets from the Raid presented above.








                          Les Fusiliers du Mont Royal
                          (White Beach/DIEPPE - 584 engaged/119 kia/161wounded/344 pow/125 returned)
                          All British made, "ROCO 1940" shell & "BMB 1939" liner
                          Double flashed - light khaki factory paint covered with olive green paint












                          Essex Scottish
                          (Red Beach/DIEPPE - 553 engaged/121 kia/149 wounded/382 pow/52 returned)
                          All British made, "F&L 1940" shell & "VERO 1938" liner
                          Double flashed - light khaki factory paint covered with olive green paint.












                          Essex Scottish
                          (Red Beach/DIEPPE - 553 engaged/121 kia/149 wounded/382 pow/52 returned)
                          Canadian made GSW 1941 shell with C.C.L 1940 British liner
                          Single Flash, Over painted in olive green - Named/scratched "PAT" inside shell skirt













                          Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada
                          (Green Beach / POURVILLE - 505 engaged/76 kia/166 wounded/89 pow/268 returned)
                          British shell "JSS 1940" & Canadian Liner "VCM 1941"
                          Double flashed - Over painted in olive green - Named "MAC" inside shell














                          The Black Watch of Canada
                          (Blue Beach / PUYS - The first company engaged in support the Royal Regiment of Canada
                          111 engaged / 4 kia / 11 wounded / 63 pow / 44 returned)

                          British shell Double flashed - with Initial & Id Nb of William FARMER, Lance caporal, 1st Battalion Black Watch of Canada















                          The SOUTH SASKATCHEWAN Regiment
                          Green Beach / POURVILLE - 523 engaged / 84 Kia / 167 wounded / 89 Pow
                          Double Flashed - over painted with private purchase liner (own by Geoff)











                          A SOUTH SASKATCHEWAN Rgt MKII with "Dieppe flashes" over painted in brown, found in Normandy/Calvados near Cean and left by the 2nd Cnd Inf Div after their July 1944 landing)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Interesting to hear more detail on these as I am learning too, I overlooked the UK aspect of the lids, I did see a larger type of flash overpainted with a smaller canadian one on a mk2 previously, I might have thought it was one of Thierrys, but it appears not, but seen it somewhere

                            was it on ebay before

                            Comment


                              #15
                              when you get chance can you do a better photo of the flash,

                              Comment

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