Fake British items

[Allan B]

Mesrine; I don't think anyone is saying that it is ok. They are saying buyer beware, because there are ****s out there (There is no such thing as a Trading Standards Militaria expert). As I said the buyer needs to try and limit the risk of them taking your money. MTUK are not the only ones. I feel certain that a whole list of sellers to avoid could be put together in a thread on this forum.

Cheers

Allan

[Dave Bybee]

Andrew,

Thank you for exposing these crooks for what they are. And thank you for sharing how you were able to get them to refund your money.

Dave

[Beau Brummel.]

It's funny Isn't It, Gibson's log book would be worth well In excess of £13000 on It's own, add that to the very significant sums the other pieces would be worth had the provenance checked out and we are presented with something of a dichotomy. I'm assuming the purchaser would not have made the seller aware of these facts and offered him more than the asking price, but rather, made off over the hill like a Mexican bandit congratulating himself at his good fortune. , just saying.

Anyway, I'm very glad the gentleman was able to get his money back and I'm sure he's learnt a valuable lesson which will stand him In good stead for the future. Without absolutely bulletproof (sorry) provenance one must buy the Item and not the story. Hoary old chestnut I know but It does hold true.

Similarly It serves the buyer to educate Him or Herself as much as they possibly can before committing to purchasing Items of such historical Import.

Sadly the field of military antiquities Is studded with those who are only too happy to relieve an Innocent of his hard earned pennies and In general the same sort of safety nets do not exist as they do when purchasing a second hand car, to quote an example used by a previous poster.

For all the flak (see what I did there) some of my erstwhile colleagues have had to endure for citing the old maxim I must add myself to the list of those crying "CAVEAT EMPTOR". And that go's for everyone, dealers and customers alike!

Anyway, enough from me and a very Happy New Year to one and all, Guy.

[Dom]

It's funny Isn't It, Gibson's log book would be worth well In excess of £13000 on It's own, add that to the very significant sums the other pieces would be worth had the provenance checked out and we are presented with something of a dichotomy. I'm assuming the purchaser would not have made the seller aware of these facts and offered him more than the asking price, but rather, made off over the hill like a Mexican bandit congratulating himself at his good fortune. , just saying.

Anyway, I'm very glad the gentleman was able to get his money back and I'm sure he's learnt a valuable lesson which will stand him In good stead for the future. Without absolutely bulletproof (sorry) provenance one must buy the Item and not the story. Hoary old chestnut I know but It does hold true.

Similarly It serves the buyer to educate Him or Herself as much as they possibly can before committing to purchasing Items of such historical Import.

Sadly the field of military antiquities Is studded with those who are only too happy to relieve an Innocent of his hard earned pennies and In general the same sort of safety nets do not exist as they do when purchasing a second hand car, to quote an example used by a previous poster.

For all the flak (see what I did there) some of my erstwhile colleagues have had to endure for citing the old maxim I must add myself to the list of those crying "CAVEAT EMPTOR". And that go's for everyone, dealers and customers alike!

Anyway, enough from me and a very Happy New Year to one and all, Guy.

Yes I see what you did, you made yourself look a bit daft and petty by trying to make Andrew out as being somehow dishonest, a Mexican bandit and by regurgitating a whole series of cliches that act to give the crooks a get out clause, just more victim blaming and quite a patronising example of the genre at that.
Dom
Dom

[Beau Brummel.]

Not at all, I think you mis read my intent. I was actually trying to Inject a degree of levity Into proceedings whilst supporting what others have said.

Similarly I was trying to Illustrate the point that when a dealer gets taken (which Is not what happened here), well It's tough s##t, but when It happens to a collector then the cudgels are out!

Just had a quick look at your forum history and It does seem you revel In this kind of thing, quite the self appointed barrack room lawyer aren't you. I can only assume that you yourself have suffered at the hands of dishonest Individuals and that Is what Is causing you to champion so many anti dealer causes. It does seem that you like everyone to agree with you and that yours Is the only opinion that matters.

I've just read the full thread about this on the other section of the forum and It Is really quite enlightening. I would suggest everyone else do the same!

Anyway, I've just realised I think I know who the op Is as he states he used to collect Denison smocks. I thought his forum name was Andy b not Andrew b, my mistake.

Andy, I'm surprised you had to resort to all this legal expense, are you serious they tried to strong arm you . For those not In the know Andy is a 6'7 rugby playing fireman and I should have thought they would have coughed up quite swiftly had you got a bit angry.

Don't be offended mate but I really do think you should have been a bit more thorough with your groundwork. These guys are well known for their shenanigans and had you dropped me a line I would happily have put you In the picture.

[andrew b]

Hi Guy ,
yes it is me and yes I could have gone straight over to where they lived and worked and yes I could have gone in guns blazing and knocked seven bells of **** out of them , but would that have got my money back NO , but don't think this never went through my mind
The only way I could get my money back was through the legal way and I was never bullied by these two people , the only way they can bully you is by solicitors letters and these didn't work as I had done all my homework this time and counter acted to everything they had to throw at me .

The second point is that it was NOT GIBSONS LOG BOOK , this was purely a flight book with inscription wrote inside , so not quite the same and value , and I wouldnt have been as gullible if I was his log book .

I agree these 617 items I had would have been worth more on the open market but I did pay a lot more than the actual piece was worth without any provenance and yes I was foolish to believe there story , but as I keep saying , these pieces had more than just a story , they where backed up by original press releases regarding to items belonging to the 617 going missing from the base , they had paperwork from the base as it was been mouth balled in 94/95 and the guys on their forum gave them a good name plus all the other details I have mentioned , it was just a case of buying something without seeing it off eBay and thinking I have got a bargain here and doing a runner as quick as possible , you have to read the whole story .

The reason why I posted this topic was not for a debate who was right and who was wrong ,the buyer or seller , it was purely to warn other collectors just how far these two crooks would go to to make money by adding false provenance to original items , by adding provenance to original events in time , going to the lengths to type out and write false documents etc etc etc ,

Dom , I thank you again and everyone else who has said thank you and well done , for exposing the Military Trader , I could have easily not bothered posting anything at all and letting these two crooks carry on operating as they are doing now , and even as I speak their are numerous fraudulent pieces for sale on their eBay site , which again I can prove , but No , I thought I would put a topic to warn other members about these two who don't know them , just as I didn't at the time ,

Yes I wish I could turn back time and this never would have happened but it did , and yes I learnt , but as I keep saying , it was not quite that simple and as I also said before , I can't believe some of the replies, these guys are crooks for what they did and how they did it , end off , they should not be allowed to operate as this .

[andrew b]

I would just like to explain in plain English for all the people who have said , the buyer should have been more careful and done his homework etc and don't listen to the story

These pieces which I purchased are genuine , original ww2 RAF pieces . These where NOT fake or made up items

The story of where they came from and who purchased them are true , and backed up by newspaper reports and by talking to people who actually worked at RAF Scampton at the time .

The military trader added false provenance to these original RAF pieces to inflate the price by adding false signatures , labels , writing etc to make them look as they had come from and belonged to the 617 Squadron and it's crew members .

They embellished on the story because there was not a definitive list of what items exactly did come from the base and the fact that some items had been sold or skipped by the a RAF, who later wanted these back , including a large selection of silverwere .


My mistake was listening to these two crooks at the time when I did not know them and trusting them and believing their story which ran along side the original story . This is not just a simple case of buying a single fake item , this happened over a two year period and face to face with Tony and Nigel flitter , this is solely why I posted this topic , to warn other collectors just how far these two will go too , to make money and rob people and without a single case of remorse ,

It also shows how the world of collecting has been destroyed by people like these. Who can we trust now. If dealers are going this far to make money and every dealer and item has to be scrutinised, as in the in the list of dealers on this forum , if every story has to be dismissed because we can't trust dealers and people , a lot of genuine items will get passed off as fake because we dare not trust people .

[Dambuster Man]

Well i have read these threads and comments with interest and have taken a back seat just to see how it goes .... I know Andy well and i know the Military Trader scum bags as well as i have nearly fell fowl of them, i look back at how i was nearly caught out and could kick myself for letting my heart rule my head . Andy was a targeted buyer , they would find out what he would want and then all of a sudden the items would be available . Lets just say he didn't see them and say i like that , they made them for him and got in touch and said would you like them . Andy had a passion for 617/Dambusters so it was not hard to give the " addict his fix " , remember these people actually stood face to face and made out they were his friends , laughed and joked with him , just like the Mafia before they executed you. Andy is a nice guy and not one of you if you met him would say he deserved this (just because he was the buyer) . These two crooks purposely targeted Andys good nature and and tried to bleed him dry. So now thanks to what has happened more people are protected from these parasites and hopefully more GREEN buyers are aware ,and as collectors we should not be belittling each other for our mistakes we should be helping each other and keep this scum down .... as can be seen from the dead forum that they now run .. another tip go on their forum and look in archives , it dont half make you laugh the amount of crap on there ... Well done Andy .

[Beau Brummel.]

I don't think anyone really meant to belittle Andy and contrary to what has been mooted by certain other members there wasn't a concerted campaign of 'blaming' the buyer. Rather, I think members here were truly shocked that someone could be so naïve as to believe the stories of a pair of known con men and to actually think they would be able to purchase such significant Items so easily. It was only when Andy came to the forum himself and explained In depth how the fraud was undertaken that people really started to understand what had gone on.


Fraud Is fraud and as such Is always illegal and morally reprehensible but what makes this case really stand out Is that the victim was groomed thoroughly over a period of time and made to feel the perpetrators were friends and that he could trust them. That Is thoroughly repugnant and takes a very cynical, almost sociopathic kind of mind set to perpetrate.


Andy Is not completely blame free here as he was knowingly buying Items that he was told he should not be able to possess and that certain official parties wanted returned. That was a silly mistake on his part but can be explained by the fact that as collectors we sometimes become so Immersed that we allow our hearts to rule our heads. This was of course all part of the scam and I am sure the Flitters thought they had found the perfect means of keeping Andy silent. Again, quite clever, very cynical but a tried and tested device used by fakers, thieves and n'er do wells for centuries. It's that old joke about Van Gough's sunflowers carried over Into military antiquities. The use of fake provenance In this case seems on the surface very new and innovative but has In truth been happening for a very long time as well. Again It's a carry over from the world of fine art and antiques Into our little realm and on first exposure to such seems utterly mindblowing. This brings me back to my previous point about truly bulletproof provenance of which there are comparatively few examples. To whit, until an Items lineage can be absolutely proven beyond reasonable doubt then It Is either A. a nice but anonymous piece, or B. the same but with a cute story. In the case of the latter one should not really pay very much more than the former.


As an aside I would counsel collectors against becoming too cynical towards dealers. As someone who has traded himself I can assure you that some collectors are very avaricious and I have been the target of literally hundreds of attempted scams and rip offs at their hands over the years. It seems that when a collector Is wronged by a member of the trade then all dealers become targets for their revenge or to pass on their mistakes. Not very nice really! This also happens from collector to collector and again Is morally reprehensible!


This brings me full circle to a point which was made yesterday and had me saddled with the accusation of 'regurgitating a whole series of cliches that act to give the crooks a get out clause'; we owe It to ourselves and others to learn as much as possible about our hobby and potential purchases before we commit to them. The same go's for those we may be considering dealing with. With a small amount of research and enquiry amongst the community It Is quite possible to learn what type of reputation any given dealer may possess. Had the question of the Flitters been mooted here then I can guarantee Andy would not have had the terrible experience from which he has now emerged.


Anyway, as has been said, Andy has done a great service to the newer or "greener" collector by bringing this to the forums attention and hopefully It will save others the same experience In future.


Best Regards, Guy.

[pablo10]

"I notice this topic has also been discussed on the British military forum and I received a few replies saying I should have done my homework and I am partly to blame which bewilders me "

im sorry to read that Andy and it also bewilders me as these crooks have gone to a lot of effort and time to defraud you and many others.
it also more pc crap from people as the bottom line is these 2 have committed a crime pure and simple, it really make me angry with this "buyer beware", "do more home work" etc we collectors should not ever have to put up with crooks like the fittlers and no body should every try to defend them or their type as they are con artists, we as a society have to stop trying to pass the blame and deal with the problem and in this case it is crooks selling items they have spent a lot of time deliberately doctoring up to rip people like Andy off.

for those who know me im a reasonable advanced Luftwaffe collector of many many years and despite doing research and research ive been caught out a couple of times by crooks, I wish I could know it all but its impossible to.

as I said 100% blame the villains of this story not the victim.