WW I Era Uniform Question

[Bill D.]

Sorry that I don't have a photo, gentlemen, but I was recently looking at a British officer's dress tunic from the period of Edward VII / George V, and I'm trying to identify the regiment.

Here is what I can tell you:

The collar has gold bullion flaming grenades. Mounted on the grenade is an emblem consisting of an eagle, with wings open, atop a small rectangular base that appears to have the number "8" on it.

The same design of the eagle appears on the tunic buttons.

Additionally, on the collar next to the grenade is a silver coronet style crown, pictured below.

One other question:

I believe that the rank on the shoulder boards was for that of Lieutenant Colonel, but at the base of the shoulder board was a bullion "W".

Does anyone know what the "W" represents?

Thanks, guys!

[Robert Shoaf]

From the description, especially the coronet, the tunic does not sound like a British officer's.
Is the tunic itself a bright scarlet, or another color? What do the buttons look like?

Bob Shoaf

[Bill D.]

The tunic is British (or Canadian), bright scarlet.

The shoulder boards have the British King's crown on them.

As I wrote, the buttons have the same eagle emblem that is on the grenades: an eagle perched on top of a small rectangular base with the number "8" on it.

[Bill D.]

By doing an internet search I found this photo of the insignia of the 1st Royal Dragoon Guards, which is very similar to the eagle emblem on the grenades and on the buttons of the tunic. However, the eagle emblems on the tunic do not have a wreath on the eagle's chest, and the number "8" appears in the spot where the number "105" appears on this eagle.

The design of the dragoons emblem apparently represents the French Regimental "Eagle" of the 105th French infantry regiment that was captured by the dragoons at Waterloo.

[Bill D.]

Continuing with internet research, it appears that the Eagle of the French 8th infantry regiment, which might be what is depicted on the buttons, was the first Napoleonic eagle captured by the British, at the battle of Barrosa in 1811, and it was captured by the 87th Regiment of Foot.

The 87th then seems to have gone through some name changes, all relating to its Irish lineage.

I'm wondering if the tunic could be for one of those successor units ( Princess Victoria's Regiment, The Prince of Wales Irish Regiment, or the Royal Irish Fusiliers?).

[Bill D.]

It seems that I have been able to answer at least one of my own questions.

I found this photograph of a cap badge, which features the same crown and eagle emblem, and is identified as that of the Royal Irish Fusiliers.

I'm not sure when the regiment replaced the eagle with the Irish harp.

So...Does anyone know what the "W" on the shoulder boards would represent?

[Bill D.]

Hey, I was wrong, it is not a "W" on the boards, but an "M" !


And here is the collar of the uniform:

[Robert Shoaf]

Looks like a Royal Irish Fusiliers uniform. Definitely not the 1st Royal Dragoons, whose collar badge was the French Eagle of the 105th Infantry Regt. Since both were "Royal " regiments, they shared the blue facing color.

Bob Shoaf

[Marc Sherriff]

M = Militia.

Marc

[Bill D.]

Um, yes, I noted the difference between the insignia of the dragoons in the above post, and subsequently noted as well the identification of the tunic, based upon the cap badge, as that of an officer of the Royal Irish Fusiliers.

Does anyone know what the bullion "M" on the shoulder boards would represent?

[Robert Shoaf]

The more I look at the collar badges, they appear incorrect for this regiment. The RIF actually had two collar badges; the typical grenade of fusilier regiments, and Princess Victoria's coronet, same as own the cap badges shown earlier.
Also, the rank appears to be colonel; two pips and a crown, which is really a non-regimental rank, as they end at lieut. colonel, except for the Colonel of the Regiment, an honorary title.
Not sure at this point. The buttons sound correct, and the facing color is right, but the collar badge seems out of place.

Bob shoaf

[Adam H]

Hi there Bill,

As Marc indicated (I think moments after your post, so you may not have seen) the "M" would designate "Militia"

It's indeed a tunic for the Royal Irish Fusiliers, insignia appears all correct and proper for the period to me. Have a look at this interesting photo of an officer wearing a similar tunic:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/11794701355/

It's a nice looking uniform. I wonder if it's named somewhere?

Thanks for sharing,

Adam

[Adam H]

Bill,

I think this is the uniform in question:

http://historical.ha.com/c/item.zx?s...0&lotIdNo=1006

Have the other parts now been separated from the tunic? Shame if so!

Hope that's helpful.

Cheers,

Adam

[Bill D.]

Adam....

I did indeed miss Marc's post stating that the "M" represented a Militia Battalion.
Thanks, Marc !

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find a name anywhere in the uniform.

You are correct, that this uniform was the one offered by Heritage Auctions. It's now in the hands of someone else, and the whole set is still together.

The question that I now have is: What exactly was a "militia battalion" in a British Army regiment ?

In the United States a "militia" unit was a group of civilians who would come together as a formal military unit when the need arose. They were financed by the state and not the national government, and their role is now filled by the National Guard in each state.

So what was a "militia battalion" in the British Army?

Thanks, guys, very much !

[Bill D.]

Okay, just received this information:

The Militia were surplus part-time troops.
As a result of the Cartwell Reforms in the 3rd quarter of the 19th Century the Army, and in particular the Infantry Regiments, underwent a reconstruction and reformation (see Wikipedia).
Afterwards, most Infantry Regiments consisted of 2 Battalions with professional soldiers, one for home service and one for overseas service. Nearly all regiments had Militia Battalions, a kind of Regimental reserve pool of volunteers, ex-professionals, etc.