Fairbairn sykes dagger opinions?

[48RMC]

Thanks Nick but are these stamps not totally different then the one from Foundskippy???

[nickn]

Yes these are genuine ww2 examples I thought that's what you want to see?
In my opinions the knife that started this thread is a post war copy/fake

[missrosalita37]

I'm sorry to revive an old thread, but I actually found this forum while investigating MY "Le Veritable….SAS" dagger.

The OP's dagger is a French copy of the 2nd Pattern Fairbairn Sykes fighting knife.

Here is the sentence, as translated from the French book on knives for the French Soldier page 291 (Les Couteaux Nos Soldats):

"…A very faithful copy of the British (sic) dagger; forms, materials, dimensions are very close".

Upon speaking with an authority on the Fairbairn Sykes knife (Roy Shadbolt), the knife pictured by the OP is a "copy" of a 2nd pattern FS, extremely well done and currently valued between $350-$500. It is stainless steel (INOX) w/brass handle. It most likely dates post-1945 and is the earliest French dagger of it kind, there being the "Le Commando" which replicates the 3rd Pattern FS, and then a third version that has a plastic handle not replicating the FS no longer in French production.

The "Le Commando" has the boot clip on it's scabbard, the "LE Venitable…SAS" having no boot clip but instead a belt loop, The SAS dagger certainly predates the Le Commando by handle design. It is thought the SAS dagger was used in the 1st Indochina war and into the Algerian war. The Le Commando, the Algerian War era.

I hope I have not re-risen the dead by posting this, I just joined this Forum and since this was the impetus to do so, wanted to lend a bit of my knowledge on this particular knife. I do collect FS type daggers, pretty much only WW2 vintage. But it is fair to say, the OP's knife is not a fake….just a misrepresentation of the Seller.

Regards,
Missrosalita37

[nickn]

Hello
The knife that started this thread is not a "le commando"
Take another look

[Jenko]

Agree with Nick, I originally suspected French based on the Scabbard, but on further inspection, its a common fake seen regular in the UK, normally they have a really bad etch as well.

[missrosalita37]

Sorry if I wasn't clear…I did not claim it was a "Le Commando, I asserted is was a "Le Veritable…SAS"…please re -read my post. And it is certainly NOT A FAKE! It is a genuine French SAS dagger…These NEVER were "fakes"…they are an exceptional well done dagger for French SAS, and commando use POST WW2. I have cited the French source…

To say every copy of an FS dagger is a "fake" is a bit disingenuous of the many excellent makes that provide commandos and SAS of other nations, the availability of arming themselves with good stealth daggers. Are you calling J. Clark & Son daggers "fakes" too? They produced FS style daggers during AND after WW2 for commando/SAS use and are very well recognized for their expertly done contribution, as seen by the prices they fetch in the market. In addition, the British speak exceptionally high of the Indian made FS style daggers (Not speaking of the broad arrow "I" authentic FS daggers but actually the copies made BY India during WW2) and these Indian FS style daggers command high prices in the market and were well received as well as dutifully used by the Chindits during the Burma campaign of WW2. I actually do not see the validity to the use of the word "fake" what so ever!

JENKO..there is NO "etch" to a official French dagger of FS style, if in fact you are referring to the blade. The only "etch" is on the cross guard to identify it's French origin! And in fact, if you are finding an "etch"…it is indeed a "fake" FRENCH DAGGER!

My statement was, "The OP's dagger is a French copy of the 2nd Pattern Fairbairn Sykes fighting knife" …if you are aware of these French daggers, you know the OP's dagger is an SAS by virtue of the "reverse knurling" handle and the inscribed "SAS" on the cross guard…a 2nd Pattern copy. The Le Commando, is a copy of the 3rd Pattern FS dagger…quite easily detected by the difference in handle AND the inscription "Le Commando" on the cross guard. So I was actually accurate in my description.

If you believe otherwise…you are erroneous. Sorry…I have thoroughly investigated these French daggers, I collect them and know what I assert to be historical and truthful.

If you oppose my assertions…I request research & data to boast your claim. Just saying they are "fake", falls far short of accuracy.

NICKN... you stated only a few posts prior, your belief it is a "copy/fake"…you are only half correct…it IS a copy, but a copy of a well known, proven and admired FS….for USE by the French for there forces in Indochina immediately following their return to Colonial power 1945….

Missrosalita37

[missrosalita37]

My apologies...

I'm not here to "piss" anyone off…just to add some expertise to this discussion. Mainly so anyone who happens across one of these French Daggers knows their source and value.

Regards,
Missrosalita37

[nickn]

I think there is some confusion here
The f-s that started this thread is a fake it's not a french copy of a 2nd pattern f-s
In the second page there are photos of a french copy of a f-s
Is this the knife you are referring to??
Where has anyone said Clark knives are fakes???
Do some research you will find there were not many different makers of 2nd pattern f-s knives during ww2

[missrosalita37]

Nickn…let me take your points one at a time: …..FIRST: Post #1 from the original poster, does in my opinion, show a FRENCH 2nd Pattern FS "copy"….Since you and I cannot handle this dagger to be absolutely certain of either of our claims…I'd call a draw on that point. HOWEVER, lacking the description by the OP, that the cross guard has the correct FRENCH "Le Veritabe….SAS", neither of us can, without the possibility of error….say for absolute certain whether it is or it is not.

SECOND: The pics on the second page of this thread, it is most definitely NOT a FRENCH 2nd pattern, it s a FRENCH 3rd Pattern "copy"…notice the handle grip style….certainly, a FS 3-P copy. Hands down, no doubt here. Especially since it clearly, and very convincingly displays the "Le Commando…." stamping/engraving.

THIRD: You yourself infer any dagger, not a "Wilkinson" FS dagger as a fake…it's obvious by the way you "look down" at anything NOT "Wilkinson"….J. Clark & Son did not make Wilkinson…yet they made FS style knives since 1942, used by MANY commandos and SAS during WW2….Read Roy Shadbolt's assertion regarding J. Clarks NON-WILKINSON'S FS Dagger : http://www.wilkinsonfscollection.com...ariations.html. In discussing the FRENCH 2nd Pattern Daggers, Roy stated this to me: "They are exceedingly well made knives, the Second
Patterns especially." Here is one that Roy sold: http://www.wilkinsonfscollection.com...SOLD_3058.html ... So, By deduction, not accepting French, extremely well made FS style daggers POST -WW2, you then appear to down grade any other original FS knife as inferior. A mistake of major proportions, I'm afraid.

FOURTH: I HAVE done the research on 2nd pattern daggers, the difference in the various makers lie not just in quality, but also in the style of the handle (Fat boy vs bowling pin shape), the blade width and length, the finish of the blade, the material used in making the handle, the etched maker markings with on the blade or cross guard as well as the handle itself. The style of top nut, the markings on the top nut or any other way of securing the handle to the blades shank. I HAVE done my research.

But to those reading this thread, 'cause I fear Nickn is closed to any additional info, regardless of his experience, I refer you to this statement by one of the BEST and most comprehensive writtens sites on FS fighting knives: http://www.fairbairnsykesfightingkni...d-pattern.html. ….According to this site, in regards to the FS 2nd Pattern knives: "….that is nearly impossible to say because there are more variations than you can shake a stick at." I would direct readers to Roy Shadbolt's site also: http://www.wilkinsonfscollection.com....com/Home.html. Roy is a correspondence acquaintance and I have sold a knife and conferred with Roy regarding Wilkinson's FS as well as French 2nd Pattern daggers. Both these professional researchers can't be all wrong in regards to Nickn's claims…..

I'm not taking anything away from Nickn's knowledge…I simply disagree to his point.

I would welcome, as a means of closing this debate, Nickn showing us pics of the differences in quality between the Wilkinson Fairbairn Sykes 2nd Pattern non-etched dagger and the FRENCH 2nd Pattern ORIGINAL "Le Veritables….SAS". ONLY show us the differences between these (2) daggers. THAT…would close this difference of opinion once and for all. The burden of proof falls to you Nickn since you are making the claims of fake and inferior quality.

Please by all means I can stand to be educated to your point. Proceed…..

JIm "missrosalita37"

I think there is some confusion here
The f-s that started this thread is a fake it's not a french copy of a 2nd pattern f-s
In the second page there are photos of a french copy of a f-s
Is this the knife you are referring to??
Where has anyone said Clark knives are fakes???
Do some research you will find there were not many different makers of 2nd pattern f-s knives during ww2

[nickn]

Jim do you know what a fake is??
A fake is an item made to diseave not a copy of an original made in another country or by another manufacturer to near specifications of the original
In this case a ws f-s 2nd pattern
I have never said a 2nd pattern not made by ws is a fake Where did that come from?
Again the knife that stated this thread is a known fake it is seen at fairs very frequently it is not french made
Sorry
Ps
Want to buy some "french" f-s I can get my hands on as many as you want!!!

[missrosalita37]

I am curious to understand how the FRENCH are intending to deceive anybody, attempting to produce a well accepted, viable SAS/Commando knife for their elite forces by openly stamping/engraving their REGISTERED trademark on their cross guard, i.e. "Le Commando" or "SAS" when any purveyor of Fairbairn Sykes KNOW those inscriptions do not exist on authentic Wilkinson FS knives (?)…please explain how the French are intending to disceive us all in the world with open declaration of manufacture., hence your use of the word "fake" vs "copy".

Let me guess…you are exclaiming the pattern of "vice marks" on the retaining nut are in congruent with the pattern on Wilkinson knives? The simple explanation…this is NOT a Wilkinson, it is a FRENCH manufacture and openly claimed as such by the French themselves…why would you believe their vice should produce the same vice marks as a British made Wilkinson?

But let me point out something very interesting: The blade of this French knife provided by the OP, has a HAND GROUND BLADE…a very time consuming procedure when compared to "machine grinding" the blade. Even Wilkinson knives turned to "machine grinding" when the time it took to hand grind the blade interfered with the need for more knives delivered to troops in combat. AND….I have not been adequately successful to find cheap "fakes" with the time honored tradition of "hand grinding" their blades.

Please explain that.

May I insert one definition of the word, "copy"….to follow as a pattern or model; imitate. We all accept the Wilkinson FS Dagger as the best and most widely used stealth daggers, would you fault a country to manufacture such a successful marque for their forces and not intend to "fake" it but declare their manufacture??? I believe that makes it a "copy"…not a "fake".

I'm curious, you have not addressed any of my 4 points OR shown us pics as to what you refer to as inferior quality? Help me out here, I'm keeping an open mind but I thrive on factual info…and I'm hoping you have something to persuade me to your assertion.

Regards,
Jim

Jim do you know what a fake is??
A fake is an item made to diseave not a copy of an original made in another country or by another manufacturer to near specifications of the original
In this case a ws f-s 2nd pattern
I have never said a 2nd pattern not made by ws is a fake Where did that come from?
Again the knife that stated this thread is a known fake it is seen at fairs very frequently it is not french made
Sorry
Ps
Want to buy some "french" f-s I can get my hands on as many as you want!!!

[nickn]

We seem to be speaking a different language
Where have I said the French are trying to deceive ?
The indian or pakistani knives have hand ground blades as they don't have machines to stamp out blades and labour is cheap
I give up

[missrosalita37]

Not convinced…one iota!

We certainly do have trouble with British English and American English!

"Where have I said the FRENCH are trying to deceive" …Really? You don't believe identifying a registered detailed dagger as a "FAKE" anything short of an attempt to say the FRENCH are trying to deceive? A fake is trying to pass off something that it is not. Hence "fake"…the French, I'll say it again, are not trying to pass off their "Le Commando" OR "SAS" as Wilkinson FS daggers…this makes them a copy at worst, yet the discriminating market and renown experts say the French daggers hold a place among stealth knives as one of best, good enough to be honored with documentation and very favorable evaluations. SEE MY LINKS!

You really have no proof of your assertion that the OP's FRENCH dagger is a "fake". It's easy to call something a "fake" in a vacuum of proof. You have neither provided documentation nor comparable pics to show the forum members where the OP's dagger is obviously a "fake". You attempt to do that with just your say so but I would have expected the unavailability to handle that dagger and inspect it properly before so carelessly assigning it a death null would have been both prudent and fair.

I will defer for all concerned to look at the links I have provided to demonstrate the viability, value and significance of the FRENCH SAS daggers, and to a bit lesser degree, the "Le Commando" dagger.

For a lack of credible expertise and descriptive evidence, "I'd give up" too.

Probably best. We certainly at this point, for the sake of civility, must "Agree to disagree"…I see no proof forthcoming to your statements.

Good night.

Jim

We seem to be speaking a different language
Where have I said the French are trying to deceive ?
The indian or pakistani knives have hand ground blades as they don't have machines to stamp out blades and labour is cheap
I give up

[missrosalita37]

Another link!

http://www.fairbairnsykesfightingkni...-versions.html

This link has pics AND descriptions AND assessments of Pakistan, India AND FRENCH daggers similar to Fairnbairn Sykes daggers…just for your viewing.

By the way…the Pakistan "junk" knives have no "hand ground" blades, just "machine ground blades"!

Pretty much blows the "Pakastani and Indian" knife makers have no machine grinding equipment theory!

Jim

[missrosalita37]

More!

http://www.wilkinsonfscollection.com...ariations.html

You might also care to look at Roy Shadbolts "For Sale" section on his web site.

Notice: Roy has an INDIAN dagger for $2200 (also "machine ground, NOT "hand ground" blade) and a FRENCH "le Commando" (with "hand ground" blade) for $600…

Read Roys intro and his connection to the original FS knife family. Roy is no "Johnny come lately" and knows what he speaks of.

Interesting how such "fakes" can be so credible and valuable, no?

Jim