L.R.D.G capbadges

[SHEARING-CROSS]

Hiya fellas,
decided to start a new thread on this one as i did not want to hijack ROB`S original one ,hope is is O.K
IN MY OPINION !!! the L.R.D.G capbadge is to me the ` holy grail ` of british cap badges and i really ,really want one .......... but , as jim quite correctly states ,i would want 1000% backing that it was original , sorry obtaining one from a veteran may not be enough ( will cover this point in a minute )
If what is written is correct , all the badges were hand made " in country " durring the African campain, in one of the early post war memoirs on the unit ,sorry cant remember which ( might be KENNEDY SHAWS book )
there is a small ref: to insignia along the lines of " we had one batch made up ....... a few months later whilst in another town another lot was made "
now to me this is the punch line ,the fact that they were hand made and in more than one location means to me they will be several examples , so far i have been told that on an original the scorpions pincers ??? sorry dont know if thats the correct term should join at the tips , another tells me they on account should meet ?? this may well have come about where one collector has a dead right one ,shows it to another collecter who two has a bang on example but they are not the same ?
i know of at least two serious attempts at faking the badge one in the early 1960`s the other in the mid 1980,s even the 1980s copy will be old looking after all this time .
i have a sneaking idea that at least one batch was made up in ITALY whilst the unit served there , as for a wire version for officers or other wise i am not convinced .a photo would be nice.
another point .......and im not trying to be controversial honest guys
what do you think of the odds of say this ...
` an officer or i suppose even an N.C.O getting a uk home leave and having a batch made up by an english jewelry shop ???? any opinions on this i would be very keen to here from you ,please .
` NEWZEALAND variation ` in the special forces insignia book, i two believe this to be a sweet heart /old comrades badge , as there is no known photo of it being worn , sorry guys i know i keep banging on about photos in my threads but , granted the LRDG were a rare unit but ...... they are a very well photographed one i am sure if the N.Z badge was worn , a photo would have turned up ......as i say when debating if any badge was worn, to me ,
no photo ..no proof
ANOTHER PROBLEM..... i was told this many years ago by an old capbadge dealer /collector ,long since gone , that after the war he thinks it was 1960 the LRDG old comrades had a very big reunion bash and that a copy badge was made to be given out , so if this is true , which i do believe , these badges will turn up in an estate sale , in an old box with a few photos and his medals , and every one will consider it an original war time one , thus ,obtaining a badge from a vet is no proof that it a good,ern
sorry i am not trying to be negative but just passing on what i believe to be true.
ANY ONE GOT ANY IMFO on this old boys capbadge or is in touch with a form LRDG veteran and he can yes /no this i will owe you a very big favor .
P.S look out for the ones appearing in the UK at an arms fair near you !!!!!! and on ,e,bay made from cast /plated silver and gold , THESE ARE WRONG they have just been made and are being released at a slow ,quite rate one example is attached to a pith / over seas service helmet , these have fooled afew auction houses ....
if any one out there has a badge they believe to be original ,PLEASE ,PLEASE post a picture , best wishes ,Michael.

[Jim Maclean]

O.K., I'll crack and admit that I've got a fake. .

The outer raised ring is the biggest giveaway.

[DaveG]

If you'll recall I also started a thread on this very subject (to which many of you kindly offered help and opinions). I think that we need a baseline before any discussion of variation, post-war manufacture, etc.

By that I mean there would have to be an indisputably original example from which measurements, construction techniques, type of metal, attachment of posts, every detail of the scorpion's upper anatomy (number of joints in leg, number of lines on back, etc.), front finish (pebbled or smooth, raised inner/outer rings), rear attributes (flat or concave behind the scorpion), ad nauseum, ad infinitum. Until that is established all else is simply conjecture.

In order to do that an "undisputably original" must be located. Are there examples in UK museums that have been in the inventory with provenance since pre-1950? Where are the personal effects of the major LRDG members housed or displayed? Do any of our UK members have access to these repositories and more importantly, can detailed photos and other basic measurements be obtained?

How crude would the originals have been if they were cast in what must have been primitive conditions in primitive villages? That they could have any detail at all given the delicate nature of the insignia itself is amazing to me, but I have absolutely no artistic ability and casting is beyond my abilities anyway. Would they have been cast from spent brass ammo laying about?

Dave

[atcase]

Hi to all,

not my field, but the only known origional that i saw the scorpions tail did not form part of the outer ring and i belive it was not attached to any other part of the badge.



Ashley

[ROBB]

Well here it is the ultra rare third pattern LRDG badge on a beret with original owner , Rob

[leigh kitchen]

Robb, somehow I'd always pictured you as somewhat taller & as a brunette.......

[ChrisB]

Hi,

With regards to the NZ version of the LRP/LRDG cap badge, the following is from a book called “Bearded Brigands” which is an edited version of the diary of Trooper Frank Jopling.

From a letter to his wife written in March 1941.
“We wanted to have an official hat badge for this unit, so one of the boys (Cpl CO Grimsey) made a sketch and took it to a jeweller to get it made into a badge.
The first one they didn’t like, so we took it back and told them we wanted a better job made of them, so we got the one we have now. It looks very good and we wear it as a hat badge now.
However, they are to make an official issue hat badge now, as the other we had made for the original New Zealanders who had formed the LRP, now known as the LRDG.”

Frank Jopling served in the LRP/LRDG from July 1940 till his capture after the Barce raid in September 1942. From what he says in the above excerpt it looks like there was both an official and unofficial version of the LRP/LRDG badge and I am sure there were jewellers copies that may have been used as sweethearts as well.

There is another book on the Kiwis in the LRDG called “The Kiwi Scorpions” that has lots of photos in and I am sure I saw one with the NZ LRP badge being worn.
Cheers
Chris

[Jim Maclean]

I wonder

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

[SHEARING-CROSS]

Lrdg Capbadges

Hello DAVE ,
sorry for not checking that this thread had been done before , did not wish to cause any offence, have now learned what the SEARCH button is for,will take more care ,
thanks for your reply ,you have covered some very valid points , i think your right ,the best way forward is to locate museums that have ,as you say undisputable examples donated many years back , best wishes ,Michael

If you'll recall I also started a thread on this very subject (to which many of you kindly offered help and opinions). I think that we need a baseline before any discussion of variation, post-war manufacture, etc.

By that I mean there would have to be an indisputably original example from which measurements, construction techniques, type of metal, attachment of posts, every detail of the scorpion's upper anatomy (number of joints in leg, number of lines on back, etc.), front finish (pebbled or smooth, raised inner/outer rings), rear attributes (flat or concave behind the scorpion), ad nauseum, ad infinitum. Until that is established all else is simply conjecture.

In order to do that an "undisputably original" must be located. Are there examples in UK museums that have been in the inventory with provenance since pre-1950? Where are the personal effects of the major LRDG members housed or displayed? Do any of our UK members have access to these repositories and more importantly, can detailed photos and other basic measurements be obtained?

How crude would the originals have been if they were cast in what must have been primitive conditions in primitive villages? That they could have any detail at all given the delicate nature of the insignia itself is amazing to me, but I have absolutely no artistic ability and casting is beyond my abilities anyway. Would they have been cast from spent brass ammo laying about?

Dave

[SHEARING-CROSS]

Lrdg Capbadge Photo

Hello Chris ,
many thanks for your reply ,
i have spoken in the past to two leading LRDG collectors about the `Jopling diary ` letter who have lead me to believe ,as they claim also to that this does not relate to the badge we speak of , but a variation on the normal NZ capbadge ,the argument ( i am told ) is backed up by corespondence with former members of this unit , if you can supply any more details on the book with the photo in i will buy you a very big beer ,
did not know about this book , very best wishes ,Michael

Hi,

With regards to the NZ version of the LRP/LRDG cap badge, the following is from a book called “Bearded Brigands” which is an edited version of the diary of Trooper Frank Jopling.

From a letter to his wife written in March 1941.
“We wanted to have an official hat badge for this unit, so one of the boys (Cpl CO Grimsey) made a sketch and took it to a jeweller to get it made into a badge.
The first one they didn’t like, so we took it back and told them we wanted a better job made of them, so we got the one we have now. It looks very good and we wear it as a hat badge now.
However, they are to make an official issue hat badge now, as the other we had made for the original New Zealanders who had formed the LRP, now known as the LRDG.”

Frank Jopling served in the LRP/LRDG from July 1940 till his capture after the Barce raid in September 1942. From what he says in the above excerpt it looks like there was both an official and unofficial version of the LRP/LRDG badge and I am sure there were jewellers copies that may have been used as sweethearts as well.

There is another book on the Kiwis in the LRDG called “The Kiwi Scorpions” that has lots of photos in and I am sure I saw one with the NZ LRP badge being worn.
Cheers
Chris

[Jack Dutton-Roberts]

Hello,

I read this thread with great interest but stupidly I didn't reply to it earlier.

Michael, in my opinion the NZ LRDG badges are a load of trash. No photographic evidence of them being worn or no information from the veterans.
They could possibly be a sweetheart type badge but I still think it's a long shot. Could be a fantasy piece? About the LRDG cap badges being made up for the veterans in the 1960s - I have also heard of this and I suspect it was done - I think it may have also been done by the PPA verterans but I can't really confirm this?

I wholeheartedly agree with you about there being several different variations/types of the LRDG badge according to what batch/where they were made/when they were made/quality of workmanship etc. But sadly, I think in the past many original pieces not quite conforming to the standard of known originals have probably been thrown away because they were believed to be fake, perhaps rightly so, I know! Whatever the case, any LRDG cap badge will be looked at in a highly suspicious way without any absolute solid proof. But then, can anyone approve/disprove whether a badge is real or not without any evidence, I think not, so there could be original badges out there at bargain prices! But in reality we will never know...

Anyway, what are your opinions on this one. Here are the facts - quite crude sand casted, gold content and it doesn't look like it was made yesterday. Supposedly came from a load of scrap jewellry that was part of a deceased estate. The other side - no solid proof of it being original, most likely a fake, but what do you think??

Thanks in advance, from Jack.

[Jack Dutton-Roberts]

Reverse.

[Jack Dutton-Roberts]

Did anyone see this on the Collector's Guild?

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Other...os/C07450.html

I'm not sure about the rest of the group, but I think the cap badge is a fake one?

$345, too cheap if it was original?

[ROBB]

Jack yes saw that on The Collectors guild .Also I noticed you won the badge that was why I was asking about gold content in another thread ,the thing I like about it is no one would bother making this out of solid gold on the off chance someone might buy it . Therefore I think its a genuine sand cast locally made (out of deceased Germans rings )badge .But there is no provenance ,which is sad .Rob.

[Jim Maclean]

Jack,

The badge is a sucker, don't bid, look at the badge I posted, two rings - wrong.