Canadian insignia

[hayleyp]

during ww2 was canadian insignia printed first or woven later in the war,
also who has canadian b.d. For sale thanks will

[Infanteer]

A very simplistic answer is that Canadian insignia was woven throughout the war. Insignia obtained from Canadian sources was woven and insignia obtained from English sources by units "overseas" was often printed when obtained through official channels but could be woven when purchased by units and individuals. It depends on the unit. The subject of insignia is a vast one indeed.

[hayleyp]

t

ok thanks for the info ,cheers Will

[Bond]

Canadian BD's are quite commonly seen for sale, it all depends on what you want, wartime with all original insignia is more expensive than unbadged and the unit it is badged to makes a big difference in the price you would have to pay.

There are a few on Ebay with apparently original badges starting at £100 and upwards. Most seem to be in Canada, though there are a few on some of the UK dealer sites, mostly unbadged and late war.

Jerry

[hayleyp]

original

Canadian BD's are quite commonly seen for sale, it all depends on what you want, wartime with all original insignia is more expensive than unbadged and the unit it is badged to makes a big difference in the price you would have to pay.

There are a few on Ebay with apparently original badges starting at £100 and upwards. Most seem to be in Canada, though there are a few on some of the UK dealer sites, mostly unbadged and late war.

Jerry

Hi Jerry,
i would want a original badged one for normandy ,thanks Will

[Seaforth72]

Canadian battledress - post-war, replica badges etc.

Canadian BD's are quite commonly seen for sale, it all depends on what you want, wartime with all original insignia is more expensive than unbadged and the unit it is badged to makes a big difference in the price you would have to pay.

There are a few on Ebay with apparently original badges starting at £100 and upwards. Most seem to be in Canada, though there are a few on some of the UK dealer sites, mostly unbadged and late war.

Jerry

CAUTION

Canada continued using battledress until the early 1970s. I know as I was issued some in 1970. The post-war battledress is most simply identified by the buttonhole in the wearer's left (Port to Navy types) lapel. The poat-war battledress sometimes is badged similar to WWII e.g. 1 Canadian Division (red rectangle) was revived in 1950s. WWII parachute badge (wings) continured to be issued post-war (using up old stocks). Some fakers have rebadged post-war battledress as wartime. LAPEL BUTTON HOLE = POST-WWII.

Canadians occasionally wore foreign made BD e.g. if serving in the Far East (e.g. spome wore Australian made BD) or simply because Canadian kit was available at the time.

With the surplus naked BD blouses available one has to be careful and there are no guarantees. Reenactors love the extra large sizes and they sew on replica or original badges - often airborne - to wear. Fakers will sew on replica or real badges and may even make up stories "Got it from the son of the veteran, sorry I don't know his name...". Oh really?

Another area of fakery is the uniform labels. An eBay seller sells these in all sizes etc. Not aplicable to Canadian battledress blouses which were stamped on the inside on a pocket liner, but definately on British stuff such as Denison smocks.

Another category is restored blouses. I have severeal where some of the insignia was removed by the veteran or someone else. I sourced original badges and sewed them on, but first photographed the blouse/jacket "as found" and recorded what badges I had replaced (and where they came from), but not everyone will have this integrity. I worked in museums all my working career and restoration is ethical but should be properly documented and the documentation should accompany the item if the ownership changes.

There are dealers on eBay for example advertising their 'perfect" replica badges and even some that brag that they do not glow (modern threads tend to glow under Uultra Violet light - a good way to eliminate some suspect patches) and/or their sewing. At least one such dealer advertises that they do not sell them as originals and therefore claim the moral high ground BUT the next owner is under no such obligation and the seller has done their best to ensure that the badge cannot be detected from an original. Pity. I wish the replicas were all marked properly and on cloth versions that a deliberate small error was made and docuemtned on the web as a safeguard.

Fakers may also artificially age their stuff. One seller sold moldy "WWII" badges "found in a garden shed, have not cleaned them, as found" (or words to that effect) perhaps omitting to mention that he/she had placed them there some time ago to quickly age them (they were modern patterns). A common trick now for BD insignia is to sew it to s piece of BD fabric. Implying, though not stating, that it was cut out of a uniform. The buyer cannot then see the backing. I have only RARELY seen cases where people cut uniforms to save the badges - people usually cut off the badge.

Fakers lie through their teeth. One wrote that he had collected his badges in the 1950s (before people bothered to replicate them) yet they were obviously modern made copies.

Best sources:
1. From the WWII veteran himself. (Those days are fast passing.)
2. From the family. (I have been given or purchased several recently from families directly.)
3. From a museum (Museums do occasionally deaccession items and should normally do so through public process e.g. public auctions. Every Canadian military museum has too many BD uniforms and uniforms that are not relevant to their mandate. Museums MAY occsionally trade but most are reluctant to do so. It is legitimate if the process is transparent, approved by their Board and museum receives equal or better items in exchange.)
4. From a reputable dealer or collector.
5. Gun and collector shows (you can use your UV lamp - obtainable from coin and stamp stores) and closely examine and queston the items and sellers.
ALWAYS ask for more information when you acquire a uniform! Name of soldier, regimental number, unit, places of service etc. Sadly few dealers bother to ask or record this information. If you go to shows outside of Canada you may find less interest in Canadian uniforms and might find a good deal - or a fake. When there is supporting paperwork (pay book, discharge documents, photos etc. that is good but is not a guarantee and a uniform could be made up to go with the paperwork.

Be very skeptical. A few years ago a BD blouse turned up at a local gun show. It looked too good to be true. Lieutenant, South Staffordshire Regt., airborne, Canada patches, wound stripe, glider patch. I was suspicious but I did a lot of research, then took a gamble and paid a lot for it. Further research led me to a second tunic of his (which I acquired in trade) which was named, and photos of him (one wearing the second tunic in 1944), his wartime record etc. He was Lieut. Jim Erskine of Vancouver, BC, a CANLOAN officer to 2 S Staffs, a platoon commander in D Coy and landed at Arnhem on the first day of the battle in Sept. 1944. He was seriously wounded a few days later and was taken prisoner. This BD blouse was original but it could easily have been a fake.

The uniforms of the elite units and front line combat units command the highest prices. The support services less so and theirs can be obtained for much less e.g. RCEME, RCOC, RCCS yet they too were there and served an essential role. They could be a good start for lower budget collections.

[Grizzly]

To add a couple of points to the discussion. Seaforth has given an excellent overview of the issues regarding collecting Canadian tunics. It should also be remembered that the tunics that come on the collectors' market are the "coming home" tunic. Actual front line BD were removed from service and either "ragged" or destroyed. They were not consdered serviceable. At the end of the war, the front line service tunic was withdrawn, and new ones issued to the soldiers. These in turn were fixed up with the insignia appropriate to the soldier's unit. As Infanteer said, this can be a minefield. The only official overseas insignia after 1943 was the printed pattern. But shortages and vanity resulted in the acquisition of embroidered titles at unit or soldier expense. By far, the main insignia in use was the printed pattern. (The purchase of embroidered insignia was officially discouraged, and frowned upon. However, at the end of hostilities, from May until the respective unit was repatriated, the regulations on dress were not as strictly enforced.)
A guideline for the value is the sum of the parts. A 1 Can Para tunic has the cachet of an elite unit, and the titles, Pegasus patches, airborne strips, etc all add up to a pricey tunic. Unfortunately, a corps (RCAMC, RCASC, RCEME, etc) tunic, patched authentically and attributable will not have nearly the value, because they are seen to be less desireable. And, the constituent parts are quite easy to find. As Seaforth notes, a plain bd can quickly become a scarce WWII tunic by the addition of titles and patches.
Over the last few weeks, a major Canadian collector thinned his collection by offering some very interesting BD on ebay. An attributable tunic to one of the most scarce units, the 3rd Bn Irish Fusiliers, was offered. IIRC, it didn't sell. The unit was only active force for about a year. They only acquired titles in the spring of 1943, and were disbanded in August that year. But as a unit that only served in Canada, it attracted very little interest.
This points out the premium put on war service tunics. But one must remember that these were the uniform the soldier wore at the end of hostilities.

[Bond]

Hi Jerry,
i would want a original badged one for normandy ,thanks Will

This one is on ebay, and though they were not in Normandy, the were in Italy and then later were in NW Europe.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISA...E:B:SS:GB:1123

Jerry

[hayleyp]

This one is on ebay, and though they were not in Normandy, the were in Italy and then later were in NW Europe.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISA...E:B:SS:GB:1123

Jerry

Hi Jerry,
thanks i will watch this one,cheersWill