1913 Bear Skin Hat

[JHoll72]

Hey guys,
Just picked this up tonight and looking for some info if possible. Who wore these with the white hackle? Other than the chin chain is there anything else missing, eg. a badge?
All comments are welcome.

[JHoll72]

hat

[pylon1357]

I still think its a skunk in disguise

[pylon1357]

Ok so I will try to help. IIRC I saw an image not too long ago of a group of Second Dragoons Officers with A very similar Bearskin cap with the white hackle. Might be a place to start Jeff.

Second Dragoon, Royal Scots Greys.

[Marc Sherriff]

None of the Bearskins worn by the British Guards have a white hackle on the right. The double Broad Arrow is a condemed mark, item unfit for service.

Grenadier Guards White left side
Coldstream Guards Red right side
Scots Guards None
Irish Guards Blue right side
Welsh Guards White and green left side.

Marc

[JHoll72]

Hey guys,
Thanks for the info!
So Marc does that mean this one was a reject or just not a Guards bearskin? Or maybe for a CDN regiment?

[Marc Sherriff]

The plumes are removable therefore the wrong one could have been inserted, the double Broad Arrow means it has been condemned as unfit for further service, sorry I can not help with Canadian Guards, but I would have thought that they closely followed ours.

Marc

[DaveG]

I collect British firearms and the two broadarrow stamps facing each other indicate a sale mark, or sold out of service, not "condemned" as in not usable. Was the cap "condemned" based on condition or because it was an obsolete design, i.e., a new liner system was incorporated or some other change to design?

I'm just curious.

Dave

[Marc Sherriff]

When the double Broad Arrow was first used on any Uniform items they were condemed as unsuitable for further serivce use, and they were normally destroyed. The same mark was also used on Cannon and meant the same no longer suitable for military use. It is a mark still used in some units to indicate that the item is not for serivce use and may be disposed of. At one time it was illegal to wear any type of Military uniform that you were not entitled to wear and therefore would not be sold. If there was any change to the design any old stock would have been used up before new items were issued.

Marc

[peter monahan]

While it's true no civilian can [legally] wear an armed forces uniform or part of same, it doesn't follow that the bits were destroyed rather than sold! I've been looking at and in some cases buying ex British, Indian and Canadian Army kit for 35 years now. I don't think this is Canadian - hackle on wrong side for the Cdn. Guards who were, I think, modelled on the Coldstreams anyway, so red hackles.

Perhaps it was used by some band who wore/wear military style uniforms. There are literally hundreds od such groups out there! Equally likely, in my humble opinion is a scenario where someone - theatrical costumer or novice collector - finds the bearskin in one place, finds the plume in another and marries the two. That too is common!

My tuppence worth!
Peter

[Marc Sherriff]

While it's true no civilian can [legally] wear an armed forces uniform or part of same, it doesn't follow that the bits were destroyed rather than sold! I've been looking at and in some cases buying ex British, Indian and Canadian Army kit for 35 years now. My tuppence worth!
Peter

First of all the Uniform act was changed many years ago and civilians can and do wear military uniform, all those re-enactors. Second the condemnation mark was still being used by some units through to the 1990's and the items were being destroyed. It is a fact and I was one of those responsible for destroying many varied items from sets of webbing through to Tunics, most of the Full Dress Tunics were also slashed and other clothing was completely cut up and reused as rags. Although a stop to the destroying was ordered completly in 1992 it still happens in some units.

But this is getting off the subject of the Bearskin.

Marc

[byterock]

Well here is my 2c for what it is worth.

Only one regiment in Canada would where a Bearskin with a white plume and that would be the 'Grenadier Guards'.

It was not uncommon in the 60s to see regimental kit this old. Many items where passed down (and still are) from the originating UK regiments to Canadian Regiments.

Most of the oldest bearskins where disposed of in two waves first with the demise of the Can Guards in 68 and the great bearskin reject of the 1980s sometime when the CG bought a batch of new ones from the Brigade of Guards that where substandard.

[JHoll72]

Lots of great info here guys thanks. The son said it had been in the family for near 50 years so it may well have been from '68. I'll ask more about his fathers service and that may give me some idea where it cam from.

[JHoll72]

I got a chance to do some more research tonight and it looks like what I have is a racoon skin hat and a right hand hackle would be for a Fusilier Regiment. The racoon skin hats were larger than the busby and smaller than the bearskin hats.

Hackle colours:
Lancashire Fusiliers: Primrose yellow
Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment): White
Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers: Grey
Royal Irish Fusiliers: Green
Royal Northumberland Fusiliers: Red over white
Royal Scots Fusiliers: White
Royal Warwickshire Fusiliers: Blue over Gold
Royal Welch Fusiliers: White

There are also two holes in the front of the cap to accomodate a racoon skin cap badge, larger than the regular cap badge.

[pylon1357]

So it is Racoon and not bear?? Makes sense I suppose, a racoon is a member of the SKUNK family. LMAO