Guard Irma Grese Grouping

[Dougie]

Hey guy's!
once more I'll need your expertise, this time in the Brittish sector.
I'm just a 'rookie' in this particular collecting-world
I'm hoping you could tell me if this is a genuine grouping or just a bad bunch of fakes

The seller included this with the advertisement:

THE VERY RARE MEDAL GROUP OF RAYMOND GEORGE WILSON WHO WAS A GUARD AT THE BELSEN CONCENTRATION CAMP TRAILS. HE GUARDED IRMA GRESE (THE BEAUTIFUL BEAST), AND ENCLOSED IS HIS TESTOMINY VIA EMAILS FROM A RELATIVE OF HIS WHICH EXPLAIN HOW HE FELT ABOUT HER AND THE TRAILS AND ALSO EXPLAIN WHAT HE DID IN THIS PERIOD OF HIS SERVICE.
THE MEDALS ARE THE FOLLOWING: 1 X 1939 - 1945 STAR , 1 X FRANCE & GERMANY STAR & 1 X 1939 - 1945 WAR MEDAL. ALL IN EXCELLENT CONDITION.
ALSO ENCLOSED IS HIS SERVICE POCKET WATCH WHICH HAS BEEN SERVICED AND KEEPS EXCELLENT TIME, WITH THE NUMBERS GSTP 27654 STAMPED ON THE BACK
ALSO ENCLOSED IS A B/W PHOTOGRAPH PICTURE OF RAYMOND GEORGE WILSON.
ALSO ENCLOSED IS RAYMOND GEORGE WILSON'S ARMY SOLDIER'S SERVICE & PAY BOOK.
ALSO ENCLOSED ARE HIS ARMY DOG TAGS.
ALSO INCLOSED ARE HIS HALF BROTHERS H FORSYTH 1939 - 1945 WAR MEDAL WITH ORIGINAL BOX AND MEDAL DOCUMANTATION AND HIS ROYAL CORPS OF SIGNALS CAP BADGE.
MEDAL IN EXCELLENT CONDITION BUT BADGE MISSING FIXING PIN.
ALSO ENCLOSED ARE WIKIPEDIA DETAILS OF IRMA GRESE.

Here are the pics. unfortunately these are the only ones I could take off of the site. I mailed for more pics.. So these are the only ones for now.
He want's 300 Euro's for the whole lot. But I'm sure I can get a small discount.
Is it worth the money

I hope I could get a quick and good reply! I'm counting on you guy's. For the sake of my collection haha
Cheers, Dougie!

[Robin Lumsden]

I would say the price for the group is good.

The medals are correct for a British soldier serving in the area of the camp.

Given the 'testimony' from the relatives, I think it's worth a gamble.

[byterock]

Why would a Sparks be guarding a prisoner???

Any guard would of been a red-cap!!

Unless this chap was a translator he would have about 0% contact with any any prisoner involved in that trial.

Most likely just posted to the camp with his unit (there was a large DP camp there after the war)

Typical case of a dealer up selling a typical group to bilk a few extra $$ out of the buyer with a very tenuous link to infamous person.


Any chance to see inside the pay book that will tell the whole story??

[seebee1]

The Royal Corps of Signals part of the grouping belonged to the half-brother, not the fellow who was supposedly on guard duties. All the items are genuine, however can it be proved 100% that he did what the relatives emails suggest? It may be possible to research who Grese's personal guard was. If it is all correct then the price is reasonable, if it is not then it isn't worth the money IMO.

[redline09]

Is it worth the money?

Cheers, Dougie!

this group looks well over priced to me.

you should check out ebay-uk, there is some really nice groups from time to time ( watch out for the dealer made groups though )

[byterock]

Ok fair enough for the RS part but still he would have to be a Red Cap.

A quick look at the pay book will tell us what he was doing at the time.

[ROBB]

Nothing rare or valuable about the medals or watch , I would think you would need concrete proof he was her guard to get that sort of dosh as thats where the value and interest is . Rob ( there is a certain British ebay seller who could create for you the same group) .

[redline09]

( there is a certain British ebay seller who could create for you the same group) .

rob which ebay seller is that? so i can avoid them

[seebee1]

The guards for Irma Grese would have been as this image showing Josef Kramer.

[Dougie]

hey guy's,

thanks for your reactions!
I received some new pics today

So here they are (with the story included)

[Dougie]

Hope these pics are fine. He sed we could negotiate about the price.

[MMM]

Some of the details in the letter are inaccurate

Hangman Albert Pierrepoint claims he was the executioner for all those convicted at the Belsen trial incuding Irma Grese.

They were all hanged at Hamlein jail by him and an assistant.

Though other details do tally on other points there is nothing more than you could dig up on the web with some research.

At the end of the day there is nothing in the letter that is wholly convincing to prove provenance.

[seebee1]

I like this grouping a lot less now further details, with many spelling errors, have been posted. Agree with what MMM has stated, especially the point about the information supplied being readily available from the internet, in fact could have been much better embellished. Also the Pay Book now no longer belongs to Raymond (the alleged Guard) but to his half-brother Harry. But if you look at the Pay Book details how did "Uncle Harry" change from being a very obvious Barry? Did Raymond, an ex-Van Guard, speak German, did Grese speak English? Why was Raymond at one time a Guard and then a Bulldozer driver? Mention is made of an elusive photograph, Raymond with Grese and another Guard walking the perimeter, that would be a vital part of this story. All seems very contrived and a way to extract a fair chunk of money from the unwary

[Dougie]

Hey Folks!

thanks once again. I'm now pretty sure it's just a small collection of nice stuff. nothing more, nothing less. But the guy lowered his price from 300 to 200 euro's. Should I buy it for that price? The medals all look nice ^^ And the watch is nice too.

Cheers!

[A H]

Hey Folks!

thanks once again. I'm now pretty sure it's just a small collection of nice stuff. nothing more, nothing less. But the guy lowered his price from 300 to 200 euro's. Should I buy it for that price? The medals all look nice ^^ And the watch is nice too.

Cheers!

Hi Dougie £70 to £85 is in the region of what you should pay for the group. The Grese conection is just a story I feel.

If you break it down

1939 to 1945 star = £8 to £10
France and Germany = £15
War medal = £10, but you have 2, so £20
the picture, medal card, pay book and medal box say £20 to £25

Cheers Adam