Metal badge help sought??

[Garth Thompson]

Let me start out by saying I am woefully ignorant on metal badges but do pick them up if they look unusual and are decently priced mostly to use as trade stock. I picked up these two at a militaria show. From what little I've been able to find out the RNAS was the first to use armoured vehicles in WW1. The other is, I THINK , a badge for the Tonga Defence Force vintage unknown. Any help or information on these very much appreciated.
Thanks,
Garth

[Garth Thompson]

Reverse view.

[Jim Maclean]

Garth,

The RNAS Armoured Car Section badge is believed to have only been worn on the collars and should be of 'bronzed brass'. For that reason I don't like the finish and don't like the cap slider fitting. British stuff is unfortunately faked as much as TR.

Sorry mate
Jim

[Garth Thompson]

Garth,

The RNAS Armoured Car Section badge is believed to have only been worn on the collars and should be of 'bronzed brass'. For that reason I don't like the finish and don't like the cap slider fitting. British stuff is unfortunately faked as much as TR.

Sorry mate
Jim

Jim,
Thanks for the opinion mate. Unlike some our younger brethren in the collecting community I don't have an apolectic fit if I get a ringer once in awhile, just consider it tuition in the college of militaria. A couple of questions: Was the slider used on WW1 badges? Are all/most WW1 badges a darkened bronze finish? How do the repro makers get away with using the J.R.Guant trademark? I know they are a respected insignia manufacturer. Generally in broad brush what do you look for in a badge to determine authenticity? I have certain guidelines I look for in medals and cloth bits so I'm reasonably sure you have the same in badges. Finally, any thoughts on the TOGA badge.
Garth

[leigh kitchen]

Jim,
Was the slider used on WW1 badges? Are all/most WW1 badges a darkened bronze finish? How do the repro makers get away with using the J.R.Guant trademark? Generally in broad brush what do you look for in a badge to determine authenticity? I have certain guidelines I look for in medals and cloth bits so I'm reasonably sure you have the same in badges. Finally, any thoughts on the TOGA badge.
Garth

The slider's common enough on WW1 badges. It's possible to find some badges with both lugs & a slider (I've only got one, a Notts & Derby Kings Crown) I don't know why both types of fitting are applied. Generally speaking the only "bronzed" badges are oficers sd insignia. Their bronzed badges will usually have flat prong fittings on the rear, or as is common nowadays - not have them any more because they've broken off. Some of these bronzed cap badges (such as Royal Fusiliers) are identical to collar dogs, same size etc, the latter have lugs instead of the prongs. Caps & collars are often semi solid die struck or even solid struck, thicker than the OR's versions. I have some more recent badges (a Royal Fusiliers St Edwards crown version & a Royal Engineers K Geo VI, 'tho I've often wondered if the RE badge is some form of WWII OR's one) which have sliders instead of prongs. Two line infantry regiments, the Lincolnshires & the Hampshires wore a totally different design of badge for officers & ORs. The bronze finish applied varies considerably over the years. A bronzed finish was worn by ORs in some regiments eg (the Dorset Yeomanry), sometimes only by one particular battalion of a regimant (can't think of an example - one of the East York battalions?) & by some school cadet units (eg the one that wore the Notts & Derby badge, bronzed & voided & whose name I can't remember).
Unless they've gon out of buisiness over the past few years then JR Gaunt are still producing, you can contract runs of restrikes sometimes on original dies. Their restrikes seem to be of a good solid quality, when compared to other more scurrilous restrikes. A short PM to follow, this is getting too long & there are some people who really know the subject out there who'll no doubt chip in. Your RNAS badge looks like an obvious restrike or repro, & my understanding is that the insignia were produced as collar dogs, not cap badges. The Toga - you'll be relieved that I've got nothing to waffle on at length about there. It looks better than the RNAS, but I can't tell one way or the other.

[Jim Maclean]

Garth,

I have to agree with what Leigh is saying. Your RNAS badge was probably made by Gaunt but after the fact. I have one with lugs which at the moment cannot find. It has a worn bronzed finish and looks period, however I'm not sure even on that one. I don't know how large the Section was but there seems to be no shortage of their badges around.

As to sliders and lugs, I think that lugs were mainly used in WW1 and that sliders became more common afterwards. The majority of infantry regiments entered the 1950s with the same badge as they entered the First World War so changes occurred in the method of fixing without changes in the front of the badge.

The subject of when sliders versus lugs appeared has been ignored by reference books and is woefully under documented. Perhaps this new forum will bring out some long needed info.

I don't know anything about the Toga badge either, but think it looks good.

Jim

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Garth, I am of the same opinion as Jim & Leigh; restrike on the RNAS and a possible on the Toga badge.

JR Gaunt are still around and have their dies.

Cheers, Ade.

[leigh kitchen]

On the subject of sliders - my father told me that he & his colleagues used to get their issue Welsh Guards cap badges altered so that the lugs were removed & replaced with a slider, during WWII. There's an multi part article in "The Armourer" magazine of a few years ago in which the author (David?) Johnson of the Welsh Guards (was he author of "The Miracle On The Marne"?) recounts his end of WWII officer training in The Brigade Squad, & tells of his Irish Guards Sgt Major gently enquiring as to why his "bog brush" is wonky - the problem with having a slider.....