WW1 Hate Belt

[90th Light]

The term "Hate Belt" comes from Victorian and earlier street hoods sometimes fighting for prize money who use to put studs and spikes in their belts. When they got into a fight they would take the belt out of their trousers and wind it around their fist to use it like a knuckle duster and do as much damage to their opponent as possible. This was also the way to carry an explainable concealed weopon.

These belts were popular with New Zealand soldiers in WW1 and to lesser extent in WW2 as a way of collecting enermy badges or just swopping badges, buttons with other encountered allied soldiers. In the NZ army the collecting of war trophies was not always approved by officers but the badge belts seem to be have been tolerated. The joke being that if an NZ soldier had to explain it then he could state that it was a weapon of last resort........ "A hate belt for fighting with sir"

of course no one really believe that but it could be a way of getting an officer to turn a blind eye to the matter.

Sad thing is that they are all being split up these days by greedy collectors wanting the higher prices for the badges & buttons individually. A crime against history for which there really is no real excuse by those who say they value it so much. After all when in tact these belts tell a real story of what one veteran found and valued at the time. Sort of a special time capsule in their own way,

Chris

[crown.point]

The 47th Infantry Regiment was part of the 4th Division. Their campaigns were:
Aisne-Marne
St. Mihiel
Meuse-Argonne
Champagne
Lorraine

[Bond]

I don't think I've ever seen one that was ONLY German.
Not saying it didn't happen, but all the so called 'hate belts' I've seen displayed/posted have Allied as well as German objects on them.

My tuppence worth and more.

Peter[/QUOTE]


Hi Peter, I'm not sure if you meant only WWI, but this was on sale a few months back, all WWII german on a KM brocade belt. Unfortunately I was outbid.

Jerry

[kammo man]

That first belt is a great example !!!!

I have always heard the name Hate belts for this type of belt , and thats going back to the 1970s in Ireland.



owen

[byterock]

The term "Hate Belt" comes from Victorian and earlier street hoods sometimes fighting for prize money who use to put studs and spikes in their belts. When they got into a fight they would take the belt out of their trousers and
Chris

Well perhaps. But I have a much better source for the name.

Well most of them where made on '08 belts'

Say '8 belt' in your typical working class (sorry for the political incorrectness) English it comes out something like this

'haet belt'

convert that back into what some-one who is not aware there is such a thing as an '08 Belt' you get 'Hate Belt'


Just what I have read on it.

[90th Light]

That first belt is a great example !!!!

I have always heard the name Hate belts for this type of belt , and thats going back to the 1970s in Ireland.

owen

Well there would be nothing like a Victorian Irishman in a prize fight for money using a hate belt esp. if he were "orange" and the opponent "green" or may be he was "green" and the opponent "orange"

In fact out here in New Zealand in the period around the 1850's & 1860,s the immigrant Irish use to organise such fights on a regular basis until the NZ prime minister of the time told them to put that all behind them or they would be on the first boat back to from where ever they had come if they wanted to carry it on.

One can see how the term "Hate Belt" in such a fight could be coined however. I believe that such belts also saw a lot of use by Irish immigrants on the East Coast of America in the mid 1800's as well for such fights between the different immigrant groups.

One would never miss the chance to add a few extra studs during the week for next weekends fight and that is how the allied soldiers of WW1 saw these belts when they observed one of their own adding a badge or perhaps a couple more buttons. "Getting your hate belt ready mate" plus they were always on the look out for something new or interesting to add to them,

Of course the WW1 belts were never intended for fighting but it was a handy term that the lads of WW1 had grown up with for a belt which was really nothing more than a rememberance of those the soldier had encountered a long the way at the front and they like to give everthing a nick name back then i.e. "Pork Pie Cap", "Coal Scuttle Helmet", "Potatoe Masher Grenade", "Crank Handle Fighting Knife"........."Hate Belt of Badges & Buttons"

Chris

[Mr.Jerry D]

From my understanding, it was quite common practice to grab the epaulets and buttons from the "other side" for intelligence reasons. I would assume that these were made from those souvanirsm and then expanded to allied insignia as well. I have even had "hate belts" with spiked helmet front plates on them!

but I have to say, I have never seen one here in the US that I would have even thought was made in the 50's. and I would think those "kids" would have had to mix in the more prevalent WWII era badge or button from time to time...

I am not saying these aren't faked, but you see enough of these you can tell when they have been together forever.

[peter monahan]

Hi Peter, I'm not sure if you meant only WWI, but this was on sale a few months back, all WWII german on a KM brocade belt. Unfortunately I was outbid.

Jerry

Jerry

Verrry Interesting, to quote Arty Shaw. No dig at you, mate, but I'd say that a belt with badges stapled on - they are, aren't they? - would have been made up last week-ish by a vendor.

Can't see a soldier sitting down in the OR's mess or his fox hole with the stapler from his pack and making this up. But that's just me. Thanks for showing it!

Peter

[Bond]

Jerry

Verrry Interesting, to quote Arty Shaw. No dig at you, mate, but I'd say that a belt with badges stapled on - they are, aren't they? - would have been made up last week-ish by a vendor.

Can't see a soldier sitting down in the OR's mess or his fox hole with the stapler from his pack and making this up. But that's just me. Thanks for showing it!

Peter

I agree, though the badges all looked original and were worth c£30-50 each and it went for a lot less than the sum of its parts, not forgetting it was on an apparently original brockade belt, so It was a strange item and not worth a dealer faking it with real parts and then letting it go for less than they would have got selling it as seperate items. Sorry, but I cant find what it sold for, too long back and I was not the winning bidder.

Jerry

[Mr.Jerry D]

I have to disagree, I can certainly see a soldier who has just been told to guard the naval supply office building having basically nothing else to do, making one of these with stuff he found there... ( that fact that it is all navy stuff is a good point in my book as well)

There are period photos of the "first collectors" out there, one soldier had sewn all kinds of taken insignia onto a zelt, and while not in a foxhole, in his pup tent!

I have been told combat is made up of of periods of intense action surrounded by very long stretches of doing nothing...

But we can certainly agree to disagree. I believe MOST of these kinds of things are real, and only SOME of them are faked by the unscrupulous dealers. But then again here in the US I think more soldiers were allowed to bring stuff back than in the UK too.

Jerry (the other one)

[Bond]

I have to disagree, I can certainly see a soldier who has just been told to guard the naval supply office building having basically nothing else to do, making one of these with stuff he found there... ( that fact that it is all navy stuff is a good point in my book as well)

There are period photos of the "first collectors" out there, one soldier had sewn all kinds of taken insignia onto a zelt, and while not in a foxhole, in his pup tent!

I have been told combat is made up of of periods of intense action surrounded by very long stretches of doing nothing...

But we can certainly agree to disagree. I believe MOST of these kinds of things are real, and only SOME of them are faked by the unscrupulous dealers. But then again here in the US I think more soldiers were allowed to bring stuff back than in the UK too.

Jerry (the other one)

I was saying I could agree with Peter and his logic, but I bid on the item because I thought it was at least made of real items and why fake it and then sell it for the value of 3-5 of the 16 badges ( I think it was 16, I cant remember ), never mind the belt. That does not make sense to me, so I mostly thought it was good

Jerry