I would like to test the following hypothesis. I am fairly confident it is true. If you own a leather chinstrap with rivets perhaps you could check for me .
Thanks,
Steve
Thanks,
Steve
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Chin straps
I have had a BMB, pictured in my book, with the rivets in your G&S configuration. However chinstraps were replaced so you may never know if your MKI chin strap originated with that liner.
Ken
Originally posted by SMP View Post -
There will always be the odd helmet with replaced chinstraps, but the hypothesis is that ALL BMB and G&S helmets left their respected factories in the above configurations. Hence, the majority of surviving helmets should still conform to these patterns.Originally posted by force136 View PostComment
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Chin straps
Hi Steve, edited message aboveComment
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Chin straps
Hi Steve, I dont own these helmets anymore. Gary Boegel owns the one I was talking about. I also do not have the ability to post photos on this forum. However if you do not beleive me, just find someone with my "Into the Maelstrom" book and look at page 172. It clearly shows a BMB helmet. I never sold Gary a G&S that I am sure of. You will also note on page 173 one of the Rousseau brothers wearing a HSAT with half sewn and half rivet harness. It appears to be, from your diagram, a BMB left side of the harness. Then on page 170 there is a HSAT picked up around Arnhem now at the museum showing, in your diagram, a G&S harness. Probably the best evidence I have is the photo bottom left corner page 172 showing a Canadian wearing the sample helmets sent from the UK to Canada in early 1943 showing the rivets in, according to your diagram a G&S, when all these helmets were from BMB.
The other problem is, who made the harness?? Just because the liner is branded BMB or G&S does not mean those companies made the harness. I am not sure if anyone has proven yet that the harness were all made by the same companies that made the steel shell and liner? There is also the possibility that an early version of the harness was made one way and they found out it was better to make it another way and simply changed the configuration of the rivets. In the documents I have it only refers to the harness as "Strap Chin MK I" and they list the revisions. There is no reference to configuration of rivets or companies making them different ways. It only mentions why they went from stitched to rivets.
Ken
Originally posted by SMP View PostComment
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Hi Ken,
It's not that I don't believe you. I first heard about the G&S variant chinstrap a few years ago. Since then I have checked about a dozen of them and each appears to conform. G&S helmet differ to BMB helmets in a few other ways, too.
I am sorry to say I don't have a copy of your book. I do own one of the HSAT's in it, though.
It was a surprise to find the very first reply to the thread is contary to the theory. I wanted to see if the helmet you mentoned appeared untouched.
Regards,
SteveLast edited by SMP; 02-14-2010, 02:02 PM.Comment
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Untouched
How can you tell if a helmet is untouched? if straps were switched, or placed into helmets willy nilly during the war, would it not be difficult to tell now.
Ken
Originally posted by SMP View PostComment
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If it is repainted, or the bolts swapped out, or damaged - that would be an indication IMO.Originally posted by force136 View PostComment
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I wouldn't agonise too much over this conundrum. back in the early seventies I bought three Mk.1 G&S helmets at the Astoria Ballroom in Leeds. they were originally £16 each but ended up £45 for the three. they all had stitched construction straps. I still retain one. just to throw another spanner in the works, if you avail yourself a copy of " Uniforms and Insignia of the Luftwaffe Volume 2: 1940-1945 " by Brian L. Davis , you will observe on page 197 the G&S rivet configuration on a fibre rim exampleComment
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No problem. That's what I wanted to hear. The theory was put to me my someone else. I looked back through all the G&S helmets ever posted on this forum and it appeared to be true. A hypothesis is only good until it is tested fully.Originally posted by zipper View Post
Many thanks !Comment
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you are welcomeComment
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I've had dozens BMB marked helmets with the so called G&S style straps on them, very common to see these chin straps intermixed... btw, I started collecting these helmets back in the 70's and I've owned quite a few. I would say this is a none issue (at least for me) I've just seen way too many mix and matched straps on these para helmets over the years to say a proper helmet should only have a certain maker of straps.... just my thoughts on this topic.
Cheers,
GregComment
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Straps
No problem Steve. It is always good to throw stuff like that out there cause you never know.
Also remember that it was policy during the war to repaint helmets by certain units, at least in the Canadian army. Some WD's record this. I am sure the British probably did it as well. I recall talking to a GPR pilot and he told me they painted their helmets with paint from the RAF. I did not think much about it until he sent me a Pitot head from a glider he crashed. It had the typical RAF camo of sand and green and black at the base. At that time I had a black painted MK I ( actually the helmet I was talking about ) and noted the black paint on the Pitot head was identical tothe black paint on the helmet. So althought I completely understand what you mean by repaint, be careful because repaints occurred in many different places including the UK, North Africa, Italy etc.
The Canadian comments regarding repainting actually describe then taking the paint off the exterior of the helmet, reapplying a sand texture and painting over that.
Regards
Ken
Originally posted by zipper View PostComment
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Hi,
I have a unissued fibre rimmed helmet and a issued and worn G&S helmet with your shown strap construction (will try to place pics when I get home if you wnat). I personally do not think that these were replaced at any stage because the aging and wear of all the parts match and are as expected, next to that it's not so logical on exchanging the factory issued leather straps on wartime worn helmets. (we in the military don´t exchange our straps either.. unless worn out or broken) But I would expect this to be done to reissued helmets but then again the canvas straps were introduced from 1943 on... so what´s the point?
I think this is a minor manufacturing feature.Comment
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